[guerrilla1138]

Weapons made from non-metallic materials have been around longer than metal weapons have, wood, stone, glass(obsidian), etc.
In recent times materials like Zytel, G-10, Micarta, and similar syntehtics have made an appearance on the weapons scene.
To my knowledge, the first wide-spread non-metallic knife, was the CIA Letter Opener from A.G. Russell... I have one of these, was given to my dad years ago, and then he gave it to me last year sometime, its made from black Zytel, and while being a neat weapon, has some short comings (that are shared with all other Zytel knives).
Zytel isnt brittle, but yet its soft... it wont ever take any sort of an edge that'll come close to cutting, and the point will have to be-shaped often, because of its softness. G-10 is a better material, because its harder, and yet not brittle... a plain edged G-10 knife WILL take an edge enough to make two or three cuts, however a serrated edge on a G-10 knife, will cut better, and cut longer.... in a variety of materials, from meat, to old, hard, oranges.
Plexi-Glass has been used for knives (in a variety of enviroments, including, I believe, being used by prison inmates to make shanks) but while being hard, and able to take an edge like G-10, its also very brittle, and snaps easily in thinner thicknesses (haha, that makes a lotta sense ;)).
I have heard that Lexan is a good alternative to plexi-glass, as it isnt as brittle, and will take a better edge... but I;ve never worked with, or used any.
And of course, the best non-metallic material is probably ceramic, altho some are pretty brittle, they will cut, and well... better than G-10, Zytel, and in some cases, it will cut things steel will not.

As far as non-metallic edged weapons go, after 9/11, a lot of people stopped seeing them as terribly useful... some companies stopped carrying them, and some stopped making them. Ernest Emerson designed a knife for Shomer-Tec, which was made by a small machine shop on contract to Shomer-Tec, and after 9/11 he requested that Shomer-Tec stop putting the item in their catalogs (altho not that they stop having it made/selling it)... and I lost interest in making non-metallic blades, which I had been trying my hand at, fairly sucessfully.

However, I'm seeing an interest in myself in non-metallics again... and not just knives, g-10 and similar materials offer a lot of possibilities in the fighting-stick relm as well.
I am aware of a guy named Eric Blair who makes G-10 fighting sticks, who has used them to crack cinder blocks. :eek:
And I know Mad Dog Labs made some fighting sticks from their proprietary synthetic they use for handle materials, that were really tough sticks (something about destroying most other sticks in training comes to mind).
And as for kubaton/yawara/koppo type pocket sticks, non-magnetics rock, they are hard, solid, and yet light-weight and easy to carry. (Dont make a great fist load, but as an impact weapon, they are excellent.)
And I still see a need for non-metallic blades, in the hards of Under-cover officers, and special operations operators... and "toy factor" for the rest of us (and there are probably a few situations where a non-metallic would come inr eally handy for us ordinary folks too.)

So... all this long bit of rambling brings me to the question... what are y'all's thoughts on Non-metallic weapons, and their usefulness (or lack of) and practicality?

[Bubba]

Just to add to Morgan's data. MD Labs has carried several non-metalic products over the years. The first were the Frequent Flyer knives. There are indeed made out of the composite handle material. This material is MUCH tougher than G-10. It can take pressure in excess of 70,000psi. I have seen the tests where this material was tested against G-10 several years ago. One of the tests involved two blocs of each material being shot with a round of .45ACP 230 hard ball. The G-10 shattered. The MD Labs material showed a powder mark. Very very tough stuff. That ability to withstand pressure and it's ability to withstand almost any solvent are the reasons there are now 1911 grips of this material on all my carry pistols.

MD Labs did make a run of training sticks of this material. They were very dense and made mince meat of ratan sticks.

For the Frequent Flyers, these were ground to be last ditch rescue devices for cutting through seat belts. In a pinch as a last ditch personal defensive weapon. These were only sold to LEO's and citizens with concealed carry permits. While the edges were relatively sharp, they were developed as a single use device. After use, they would need to be resharpened with sandpaper to put back a working edge.

In addition to these products, MD Labs also developed a proprietary ceramic. This material was also VERY VERY strong. This material was developed for use where a magnetic material could cause problems; such as working around explosive devices. I am sure many of you have seen the Japanese ceramic kitchen knives or the ceramic pocket knives by Boker. These knives hold an edge for what seems like forever. The problem is most ceramic is very brittle. These knives work very well as long as you don't drop them on the kitchen floor or hit a lot of bone. Re-sharpening these knives requires some very fine diamond hones. I have owned both. They are nice, but the brittle nature doesn't make them real useful.

The MIRAGE-X material from MD-Labs is much more durable. It is also a lot thicker; 3/16s - 1/4 inch. I have seen this material thrown all over a shop floor. I have seen in driven into a 55 gallon drum. I have friends who have dressed out 10 deer without the blade ever needing to be resharpened. The angle on the bevel for the edge is much deeper than most knives..probably closer to 45 degrees than the normal 20 on most working blades. While this knife is not shaving sharp, it is paper shredding sharp and stays that way. I have a 600 and a 1200 grit diamond hone to resharpen this knife if ever needed.

As with the Frequent Flyers, the MIRAGE-X is only sold to LEOs and CCW holders.

There has also been a lot of work done with other high durability, non-magnetic materials such as Stellite and Tallonite. I don't have a lot of experience with either of those at this time.

So... back to Morgan's question. Is there a need for blades of these materials? Absolutely. By there average Joe? Probably not. The good stuff is expensive. For example the MIRAGE blades start at about $350.

As many of you know, I travel for a living.... A LOT. I go through more airport security stations in a month than most folks do in 2 years. I am very familiar with the procedures and processes. Could I get a MIRAGE blade past security?? Most likely I could in about 90% of the cases. But that 10% that might find it is a bit dicey. I never know where that 10% might show up. Simply not worth the risk.

Especially when you consider how many things which are allowed in carry on that could be very easily converted to weapons. Keys, pens and such. Disarming the populous has never been successful in removing primary weapon number one; the mind. If someone wants to harm another with enough desire, ways can be found to make weapons out of almost anything. And by the same token, personal initiative to protect one's self can make sure that said aware individual does not become "food".

I do not feel knife makers who deal in these products are irresponsible. There is a need for such materials. But I also belive the public is fooling itself to believe any of the measures taken to this point have made the skys any safer from terrorism. What is making the skys safer... is the flying public itself. We have already seen passengers coming forward to disarm and disable attackers since 9/11. I have no qualms about doing so myself. If it comes down to them taking over the plane and killing thousands... I will not go without a fight.

And this attitude is much more prevalent among passengers since 9/11.

[jsr5]

To add to the plexi-glass "shanks" thing the brittlenessis considered a plus by inmates who use them it is my undestanding that the idea is to stab and then break it off in the wound making it harder to withdraw and the longer it stays the more damageit does when the "victim" is being moved. They are not concerned with re-use because they know that after the incident they will have to get rid of it anyway.

As for a need for non-metallic, non-magnetic and non-conductive knife materials yes I see a nich for them with bomb squad persnell or millitary personell involved with mine clearing or demolition.

[guerrilla1138]

Yes, Jsr, I believe you are right... I thought to mention that, but it just didnt come off my finger-tips in the first post.

Something I learned the other day, is a serrated G-10 blade cuts cheese better than a steel knife, and it will cut very, very, thing slices (thinner than I can get with a serrated paring knife.)
What I was using was a thinly flat ground piece, with serrations similar to the pattern Spyderco uses, worked excellently.
My mother thinks I should make some utilitarian blades from sythentics... She already has a letter opener I made from G-10, and I think has "stolen" that little serrated blade from me since the cheese thing. :p
I think synthetics as leter openers, and simple kitchen knives, are kind of neat. (Ever seen those plastic vegetable knives? G-10 would work better, stronger, take a better edge [ that being relative to it still being a synthetic.])

I had a G-10 neck knife I was quite fond of (I got conned out of it by an ex-gf before she was "ex-"), there should still be a picture in the Toys album. It was plain edged, wouldnt cut much, but was a hell of a stabber (fairly strong tip, was right along center, lined up with the wrist bones well), and very solid, yet weighed a mere ounce...
I liked to carry it, as it was light, and the way I carry a neck knife is as a last ditch (stab at face/throat, other soft, dangerous to poke area's, like crazy until they stop/die or I do) so it was well suited to that.
Might not have looked good in court tho.
Always been curious about an inlayed edge of some non-stell material. (titanium comes to mind... but Talonite would be better in the actual cutting department) as then it could really be used to cut stuff, and still be really light-weight, and pretty strong.

I made a fighting hatchet/tomahawk from G-10 once too... very light weight, had to replace force of mass, with sheer strength on your part, to make a wicked blow... but it was very doable.
It was/is an over-grown impact weapon, with tomahawk shape, spike on the back, slightly bearded front head, with a hooking edge underneath (I designed it for using like a Yawara stick, hooking and tearing of the cheeks) and a skull crusher ont he bottom of the handle... impact weapon, basically, just kind of nasty.
I worked with it a bit, and decided to grind a second gripping area right under the head, could use the head to punch, hammer-fist strike with the top, and hook/rip with the top or bottom of the front of the head... and the handle could be stabbed with, used like a short fighting stick, or used to block.
It was only 1/4" stock tho... too thin really, not that its weak, just doesnt feel as solid in the hand as one made from 1/2" or 3/4" with a contoured handle, and thicker head.
Again, a neat toy, but not something that would look great in court.

Pretty much, for guys like me, a non-metallic blade is a gimmick toy, neat to have, play with, carry sometimes, but no real uses that wouldnt be served by steel/talonite/stellite.
For police, under-cover cops in bars with metal detectors, or having to be working with bad-guys who use metal detectors, a non-metallic blade rocks... again for E.O.D. (Explosive Ordinance Disposal) a ceramic, or synthetic blade that actually cuts, is probably a wonderful tool. Altho really, anyone who works where a spark could mean a major K-B, a non-met is a sweet idea. But generally, only police or military (including, I suppose, private ones, like Executive Outcomes provides.) operators will need them.

Cool toy tho. :D

Shortly after 9/11 a news-paper (I think it was the L.A. Slimes... I mean.. Times) ran an article on non-metallic blades, and the implications of such things to "national security", at least from their sheeple standpoint. Companies like Shomer-Tec, Busse Knives, and Emerson Knives Inc were mentioned (MAd Dog might have been too, but I cannot remember), as well as the wide-spread availibility of the nylon/Zytel cheapies from many sources.
At the time I noted that thanks to this article, they would probably be fullfilling their own claims of these being street weapons of choice, and a serious risk in criminal hands.
Thankfully, I havent noticed this happening like I was afraid it might, but still, its possible if any other articles similar pop up anytime in the future.
Non-metallic knives, have for the most part, been known about by only a select group of people, those who need them... not your average street punk (unless he's spent time in jail, and been exposed to plexi-glass flesh damaging tools)... and I actually think it should remain that way... collectors, and those who truly need them, know about them, others, might only consider them products of Ian Flemming type writers imaginations... something I am actually glad for.
Hopefully that shall last awhile.

[jim]

Cold Steel made a composite version of their Recon Tanto as well.

Back to todays environment. Since 9-11 I've made it a policy to carry one of my larger fountain pens on ever flight. They don't seem to have a problem with it and I sure feel better with it along.

[guerrilla1138]

I'd love one of those CAT Tanto's from Cold Steel, if it was made from a material like G-10... the Zytel just isnt too appealing to me, but its sure better than nothing. (reminds me of something, I'll mention further down...)

A solid fountain pen is a good idea... If I had to fly anytime soon, I'd be taking a solid pen, and my walking cane with me. (my knee brace strapped to my knee should help be a bit more convincing I do need the the cane... which is true... sometimes.)
Maybe wear steel toed boots too. (altho that might not be too much fun at security... I dont think they have stopped people from wearing steel toes onto airlines, yet.)

Back to non-metallics... one thing I think has been forgotten to be mentioned about non-metallics. Trainers... a lot of training knives are made from Zytel, or G-10... I've seen those Cold Steel Zytel tanto's ground off to a really blunt edge, and blunt point, and used as trainers, several custom knife-makers use g-10 to build trainers as well... and a lot of people who build their own training knives use such materials also.
A definate use for non-metallics there... not as true weapons, but as training tools for the real weapons.