9mm vs 45 ACP.


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bluedlightning
10-20-2011, 02:06 PM
http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/forum/fffmain/attach/jpg.gif :D

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HK4U
10-20-2011, 03:48 PM
500 Smith and Wesson because no one should carry anything that does not start with a 5.:P

Ringo2
10-20-2011, 05:01 PM
A 9mm may expand, but a .45 never shrinks. :D

Barkley
10-20-2011, 07:00 PM
The 9mm with new types of bullet is a much improved weapon. What people seem to over look is those same improved bullets are also available in a 45. As a compact or backup gun OK for the 9mm or 380. As my primary carry I'll stick to my 45 or 44 special.

budroe
10-20-2011, 07:27 PM
Or .45 Colt!!!

festus
10-20-2011, 07:31 PM
The time honored battle rages on in the lively debate of .45 vs 9mm...

Here is the best way I can sum it up

Imagine that your human body is a full size SUV with all the bells and whistles (hey it is you right?)

Imagine that you have no choice but to be involved in a head on collision. There is no avoiding it it is a two lane bridge and one lane has a semi truck going 55MPH. The other lane has a corvette going 110MPH. Which one would you rather be hit by? The corvette impact is probably more survivable...

The corvette is a 9mm round small and fast

The semi truck is a 45ACP round fat and slow.

Both will kill you dead. The 9MM may not be as effective.

The other problem folks fail to assess correctly is target over penetration.

That small fast 9MM round has a tendency to keep right truckin' after exiting the intended victim. The 45 dumps more energy quicker and slows down faster but does way more damage.

By the way, I carried a 9MM in the military. We were actually given federal hydra-shock hollow points while stateside for the whole anti-terrorism thing following 9/11.

I currently carry either a 40 S&W fullsize service pistol (baby eagle), or I carry a fullsize USP45 (Hk).

I like the stopping power of the 40 S&W. I love the stomping power of the 45ACP.

A lot of 9MM rounds are 115-147 grains with 115-124 grains being the most common. These travel at the speed of heat (1300 FPS and then some)

A lot of 40 S&W rounds are 155-180 grains with most self defense ammo being 165 grains or 180 grains. These tend to kick along at a good clip (1050-1250 FPS)

A lot of 45ACP rounds are 185-230 grains (with 230 grain being the most common).
These move fat dumb and happy (890-1100 FPS)

Here is the real kicker. The 40S&W has better stopping power than the 45ACP in some cases....but...it is a high speed round and carries through the target much like the 9MM does. The 45ACP while much slower is twice the mass of the 9MM and readily dumps it's energy more completely in the target with less over penetration potential. Because it is slower the diameter of the expanded bullet and the retained mass act more effectively on the target and cause more permanent trauma and wound cavity. (besides shooting something twice is just silly:psycho:)

HK4U
10-20-2011, 09:50 PM
besides shooting something twice is just silly:psycho:)
on the other hand shooting something a bunch of times is fun and after doing so and having a lot left over for the next guy is really great. Plus I can do a lot more practice to make sure I can hit my target with the 9 because it is cheaper.:D

festus
10-20-2011, 10:12 PM
besides shooting something twice is just silly:psycho:)
on the other hand shooting something a bunch of times is fun and after doing so and having a lot left over for the next guy is really great. Plus I can do a lot more practice to make sure I can hit my target with the 9 because it is cheaper.:D
That is a good retort!!!!!!!

deputy
10-20-2011, 11:27 PM
nowadays, i am more concerned about the marriage of the shooter to the platform/delivery system than i am about the horsepower....

a happy marriage will result in working together and endurance....a harmonious outcome.
a bad marriage.....well, need i say more?

Williamlayton
10-21-2011, 09:39 AM
We are argueing the value of three different situations.
Target is one thing---shooting a lot is one thing--shooting a person is one thing that add up to three--not one.
If you want to shoot a lot--cheaply--reload.
If you want a target gun--both serve that purpose.
If you are shooting a person--both will kill them--the .45 will thump them harder when killing them and the 9mm will shoot thru them when killing them.
If it don't kill them when I shoot them, I at least want to thump them harder before I shoot them again.
The .41 mag is a better choice than the 9mm & a .45 will always do the job.
Blessings

Archery Ham
10-21-2011, 01:07 PM
The only logical choice : 10mm. EAA Witness, Glock 20, or Colt Delta Elite.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/10mm.htm


I think that the majority of the people going into the FBI has never shot a firearm before. I think this because of the reports that they complained of the 10mm recoil when it was developed. Small wimpy people wanting to be FEDs. :D

Maybe the South should have won. :D

ronwill
10-21-2011, 03:19 PM
500 Smith and Wesson because no one should carry anything that does not start with a 5.:P


I have S&W 500. Carried with me on my Alaska trips.

HK4U
10-21-2011, 03:29 PM
I have S&W 500. Carried with me on my Alaska trips.

That should do the trick on man or beast.:D

jsolie
10-21-2011, 03:58 PM
I've read that a 9mm is a .45 set to "stun" :D :D :D

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t123/jsolie01/Motivational/image002.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t123/jsolie01/Motivational/image003.jpg

Botazz
10-21-2011, 05:21 PM
back when we carried 45s, we still practiced double taps. Come to think of it, we did with revolvers too.

That was back in the 80s.

budroe
10-21-2011, 11:55 PM
When given the choice (and these days the decision is all mine) I carry a glock 23 .40S&W or a Colt Commander .45acp.

For most of the past ten years I carried a 9mm Glock in Iraq and Afghanistan. Honestly, I don't think a .45 or .40 could have performed any better. When things get scary you never shoot anything just once. When you're not buying the ammo (or when your butt is on the line) why count the rounds.

oldtimer
10-23-2011, 07:09 AM
I'd rather be missed by a .45 than hit by a 9. Strap on your choice and wear it all day for a week. Then we'll talk.

twmccloskey
10-23-2011, 07:43 AM
I agree with Mr. layton it depends on what you are doing? For a self defense weapon, the issue is not will these calibers kill, but when will the misanthrope be stopped. I almost always have a 3 inch 44 special with me. I own a bunch of 45 ACP pistols that have a lot of miles on them.

Having been unfortunate enough to use the pistols, they all work. Remember if you shoot somebody for what ever reason, they become a part of your life forever.

In August of 1964 I hosed a pair of Vietnamese that were attacking Tan Son Nhat. I can close my eyes and see these two today. It is a tough decision, to shoot or not to shoot. Do I get violent enough soon enough or was that too soon.

Just because you are armed, does not mean you can travel to the bad part of town with twenty dollar bills on your forehead. Think about this .

Tom

ExSniper
10-23-2011, 11:04 PM
ALL handguns and their rounds are ineffective killing machines! We carry handguns to fight our way back to rifles or shotguns. That being said, carry the handgun that you will carry 24/7 and practice to become as efficient with it as possible. With proper ammo the 9mm is a very effective handgun round and when applied to the correct locations will accomplish the mission. The same can be said about the .45, .44, .41, .40, .357, .38, etc. Pick the handgun that works for you and practice until you are supremely confident in YOUR ability to use that handgun.

HK4U
10-23-2011, 11:07 PM
ALL handguns and their rounds are ineffective killing machines! We carry handguns to fight our way back to rifles or shotguns. That being said, carry the handgun that you will carry 24/7 and practice to become as efficient with it as possible. With proper ammo the 9mm is a very effective handgun round and when applied to the correct locations will accomplish the mission. The same can be said about the .45, .44, .41, .40, .357, .38, etc. Pick the handgun that works for you and practing until you are supremely confident in YOUR ability to use that handgun.

+1. What is the saying? Any gun will do if you will do.

bluedlightning
10-24-2011, 12:48 AM
They say a picture is worth a thousand words. I think they underestimated with the picture I found, or at least in here. Have to find some more like that one, this was fun. :D

RonDurango
11-14-2011, 04:38 PM
Ex-Sniper has it right. Choose a self defense handgun that you can shoot well, feel confident with and can carry all the time. For some highly trained experts that will be a 1911. For other highly trained experts almost any of the Glocks will do just as well. These guns are not for amateurs. Their unique "safety features" or lack thereof, depending on one's point of view, make them more likely to experience an accidental discharge except in the hands of one who is highly proficient in their use.

For most civilians who carry concealed I strongly recommend a DA auto with a decocker as the first choice. Think Sig or Beretta. A good striker fired auto with a thumb safety is a good second choice. Think Ruger or Smith M&P.

Too many non experts or non professionals have had accidental discharges with 1911's and especially with Glocks. Even cops have had an elevated number of accidental discahrges with them. My local gunstore has four bullet holes in the ceiling & floor and they were all put there by Glocks carried by cops. Food for thought eh?

I'll take a Sig or Beretta with a decocker or a Ruger or Smith M&P with a thumb safety any day. The odds of accidental discharge with these types of actions are greatly reduced and they are very effective weapons that are ready to fire with a pull of the DA trigger on the Sigs and Berettas and a flick of the thumb safety and pull of the trigger on the Rugers and M&Ps

As for calibers, it's the most powerful round you can handle well enough to practice with on a regular basis. If you find yourself avoiding practice with a .40 or .45, but feel comfortable with a 9MM, they go with the 9MM. If you can handle the hotter calibers, then by all means go with them.

In the final analysis it comes down to an informed personal decision.


Ron
NRA Life Member

Gray Wolf
11-14-2011, 07:20 PM
Nothing more is needed

Barkley
11-14-2011, 08:48 PM
Ron instead of a DA auto with it's differing trigger pull I'd recommend a good revolver. If you aren't going to spend some time learning your weapon keep it simple. A revolver is simple. The longer DA pull is as safe as it get's for pistols yet is consistant.
On a personnal note I just don't like decockers. I have one pistol that was given to me (a BDA 380) that has one. It gives me the creeps every time I use the decocker if I don't have a clearing barrel.
I'm anything but an expert but I do practice regularly and feel perfectly safe with my 1911.

budroe
11-14-2011, 11:12 PM
Sadly, its not usually possible to have a rifle or shotgun on you. If you're not at home when trouble hits, you may have to fight your way several miles (or more) to get to a long gun. If all I am carrying is a handgun, I want the most effective handgun I can get my hands on. Unfortunately that usually means some kind of compromise between power and size. That's why I opt for my .45 Commander or .40 Glock.

Alaskan Rick
11-15-2011, 10:20 AM
As an old school Marine, I say forget the Beret and a 9mm sidearm, give me a piss cutter and a 45. :)

gunfan
11-15-2011, 11:38 AM
I prefer a .45, but the 9mm will kill too. Don't ever forget it.

Hasn't anyone here tired of beating a "dead horse?"

ExSniper
11-15-2011, 11:03 PM
I prefer a .45, but the 9mm will kill too. Don't ever forget it.

Hasn't anyone here tired of beating a "dead horse?"

It depends, what caliber was used to kill the horse? :D

I don't see anyone volunteering to get shot with even a .22 so why can't we just agree to let everyone use what they are most accurate and proficient shooting!

budroe
11-15-2011, 11:05 PM
Good point; as usual!!

gunfan
11-15-2011, 11:28 PM
Don't misunderstand me. The .45 should return as the primary handgun of our armed forces; no doubt about it. A full sized, steel frame 1911-A1 (or a variant, therof) is a rather heavy pistol to to carry around in an IWB holster all day!

Scott

Barkley
11-16-2011, 05:30 PM
It depends, what caliber was used to kill the horse? :D

I don't see anyone volunteering to get shot with even a .22 so why can't we just agree to let everyone use what they are most accurate and proficient shooting!

I agree completly, sort of. I also don't see anybody voluteering to get hosed down with pepper spray either and it doesn't even poke holes in you. Seriously either caliber will do with a quality load and proper placement. My personal preferance is a 45. If you like a 9mm that's fine. You shoot to stop a threat. With any practical carry gun that will mean multiple shots regardless of what you carry. Plan for it, practice it.

PS: That's one really dead horse but it's still fun to smack it a few times.

gunfan
11-17-2011, 12:49 PM
The 9mm is MUCH less expensive to shoot. (Thanks to the U.S. Armed Forces having been forced to accept quantity over quality.) That said, I have to shoot the 9mm to obtain more practice as well as the convenience of having a small(er) carry gun under my sportcoat.

I still prefer the larger .45 ACP.

Scott

RonDurango
02-11-2012, 02:08 AM
An important, but generally overlooked consideration when choosing what cailber is most effective for self defense, law enforcement or war is barrel length. The 9 mm reaches its advertised ballistic potential when fired from a 4" barrel. Likewise, powerful .40 caliber was designed to be used in pistols with 4" barrels, which are long enough to obtain maximum advertised ballistics.

The venerable .45 ACP, on the other hand, was designed to be fired from a 5" barrel. If the .45 caliber pistol you are relying on has a markedly shorter barrel than 5" you are losing velocity and a significant amount of foot pounds of terminal energy. A barrel of, say 4.5" no problem, the .45 is still fine. At 4" you have lost a significant amount of knock down power. At under 4", say 3.5" you might as well be shooting a 9mm.

A good place to see the ballistics I am writing about is on Speer's website. Compare their ammunition in .45 out of a standard 1911 5" barrel then check out their short barrel ammo and you'll see the difference.

I am not saying that the .45 is not effective - far from it; it is a very effective round. Rather, what I am saying is that if you are going to carry a pistol with a 4" barrel you are better off with a .40 caliber than a .45. The higher velocity obtained with a good JHP .40 caliber will expand reliably enough to deliver more destructive energy to the intended target than the .45 in a similar length barrel. That's the essence of what I am saying.

If you can carry a full size .45 the two calibers are essentially equal.

Ron
NRA Life Member

Williamlayton
02-11-2012, 04:52 AM
In all my years I have had one ad---with a Sig P220.
Blessings

Boz61
02-11-2012, 09:14 PM
My personal preference is a full size 1911 when I can adequately conceal it or there is no need to conceal it. A .40 compact when concealment options are limited and a PPK when options of concealment are slim & none.

I try and stay away from the argument of which is better. It's a personal choice for many reasons what one choses. I don't own a 9mm and have no plans to ever own one. (BTW, I had a throw-away 9mm but some low life stole it)

HK4U
02-11-2012, 10:27 PM
My personal preference is a full size 1911 when I can adequately conceal it or there is no need to conceal it. A .40 compact when concealment options are limited and a PPK when options of concealment are slim & none.

I try and stay away from the argument of which is better. It's a personal choice for many reasons what one choses. I don't own a 9mm and have no plans to ever own one. (BTW, I had a throw-away 9mm but some low life stole it)


+1. Everyone has their on idea of what the perfect cal. is. I have a number of 9mm handguns but no 45 or 40. Someday if the right deal comes along I might add a 45 to my collection but have no immediate plans for one.

Boz61
02-12-2012, 09:55 AM
+1. Everyone has their on idea of what the perfect cal. is. I have a number of 9mm handguns but no 45 or 40. Someday if the right deal comes along I might add a 45 to my collection but have no immediate plans for one.

When I started out in the military the good ole 1911 was my issued sidearm. Just sort of stuck with me, probably due to my comfort level with D&A. About the only thing I never removed was the mainspring housing.

The 9mm vs. .45 (IMHO) is no different than the Ford/Chevy, Nikon/Canon argument and of course like the Harley vs. everything else. Man...I don't care what you ride, just ride!!!

HK4U
02-12-2012, 12:02 PM
When I started out in the military the good ole 1911 was my issued sidearm. Just sort of stuck with me, probably due to my comfort level with D&A. About the only thing I never removed was the mainspring housing.

The 9mm vs. .45 (IMHO) is no different than the Ford/Chevy, Nikon/Canon argument and of course like the Harley vs. everything else. Man...I don't care what you ride, just ride!!!

The one 45 that I would really like to have is the new Colt New Agent Dbl action only. It is a little high but perhaps someday I may catch a deal on it.

GunshowJunkie
02-21-2012, 07:16 PM
Two bits of firearm wisdom I've picked up hanging around the FFF ranch. The .380 in my pocket beats your .45 on your nightstand. And they're all good if you 'hit 'em between the shirt pockets. Carry what you're comfortable with, so you WILL CARRY IT. Practice makes perfect. That about cover it?

gunfan
02-21-2012, 07:25 PM
The 9mm is MUCH less expensive to shoot. (Thanks to the U.S. Armed Forces having been forced to accept quantity over quality.) That said, I have to shoot the 9mm to obtain more practice as well as the convenience of having a small(er) carry gun under my sportcoat.

I still prefer the larger .45 ACP.

Scott


This is why I carried the 10mm Auto when working as an Armed Security Officer. I didn't have to choose between projectile speed or weight. I had the power and penetration to accomplish both.

(BTW, I didn't worry about "overpenetration" I was concerned with SURVIVAL)!

Scott

gunfan
02-21-2012, 07:25 PM
The 9mm is MUCH less expensive to shoot. (Thanks to the U.S. Armed Forces having been forced to accept quantity over quality.) That said, I have to shoot the 9mm to obtain more practice as well as the convenience of having a small(er) carry gun under my sportcoat.

I still prefer the larger .45 ACP.

Scott


This is why I carried the 10mm Auto when working as an Armed Security Officer. I didn't have to choose between projectile speed or weight. I had the power and penetration to accomplish both.

(BTW, i didn't worry about "overpenetration"... I was concerned with SURVIVAL)!

Scott

ExSniper
02-21-2012, 10:44 PM
If we listened to and followed the evidence of current effectiveness on the street and meeting the widest possible range of demands of self defense handgun needs we should probably all carry a .357 SIG. Fact is ALL handgun calibers are poor stoppers and very poor killers. We carry a handgun because it is portable and concealable but it is really a last ditch weapon. Get a handgun. Practice with said handgun. Get very proficient with your handgun of whatever caliber. Be alert and do your best to avoid an armed confrontation because whether you have a .500 S&W or a .22 Short, ALL handguns are not very good at stopping the fighting QUICKLY and DECISIVElY.

YMMV.

fuldo
02-24-2012, 06:36 PM
If we listened to and followed the evidence of current effectiveness on the street and meeting the widest possible range of demands of self defense handgun needs we should probably all carry a .357 SIG. Fact is ALL handgun calibers are poor stoppers and very poor killers. We carry a handgun because it is portable and concealable but it is really a last ditch weapon. Get a handgun. Practice with said handgun. Get very proficient with your handgun of whatever caliber. Be alert and do your best to avoid an armed confrontation because whether you have a .500 S&W or a .22 Short, ALL handguns are not very good at stopping the fighting QUICKLY and DECISIVElY.

YMMV.

I couldn't agree more with the first sentence. As far as stopping power, power/weight ratio, power/size ratio and weight and size overall it's hard to argue that point. It makes me wonder why the .357 Sig never really caught-on. I'm no self-defense expert but it seems to me that self-defense is almost always at close range and for this reason I don't see how a rifle or shotgun makes a great deal of difference especially if one is proficient with the weapon at hand. The .357 Sig is rated for better than 90% one-shot-stoppag; how much better does it get, even wtih a long gun? Also, one doesn't normally have another option but a handgun in most self defense situations outside the home. The home is a different situation and having something like a shotgun to start with is clearly a major advantage.

shep854
03-24-2012, 09:22 PM
Though my heart beats '.45', and my hand was shaped for a 1911, I have found that pocket carry is most practical for my lifestyle, so I go with .38 J-frames or pocket 9mms.
----
BTW, this is the most enjoyable .357 vs .45* ;) 'debate' I've read in a looong time!
Well, 9mm vs 11.25mm if you prefer--apples/apples and all that...:P

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