[Sir Knight]

A couple of days ago I picked up the new "Para Carry" from Para-Ordnance ...
http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/private/guns/f79.jpg
... this by far has got to be the smallest .45ACP 1911 pistols ever produced. It's even smaller than my Smith & Wesson 3913TSW (an 8 round 9mm) ...
http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/private/guns/f80.jpg
I eventually hope to make this my regular CCW but there are a few things that I was disappointed in and which need to be addressed.

First off, it was only shipped with one magazine and extra magazines currently can not be ordered. Secondly, it seems to be very particular about the ammo used. It loves Cor-Bon but hic-ups on just about everything else. It will not feed Remington Golden Sabers and it feeds two Federal Hydro-Shoks at a time (racking the slide will eject two rounds at once). The first one will fire correct but the second round (which is already out of the magazine), will jam. Etc.

Don't get me wrong, I like Cor-Bon ammo but I would like to be the one who picks the ammo used based on stopping power, price, availability, etc. and not have the ammo picked for my by a "picky" pistol.

Anyway, those are my initial views of the gun. Comments? Suggestions?

[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: Alan Fud ]

[loknload]

Alan, It looks good ;) Congrats on the new gun and I hope you get the problems squared away. :cool:
Where does that compare in size to the S&W CS45? Just curious because I thought it looked to be about the same :)

[9x19]

One nit to pick:

That trigger ain't from a 1911! :p

The ammo problems sound, disturbingly, similar to those affliciting the P-10 models...

[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: 9x19 ]

[Carston]

Photoasa has to go :confused:

[ 12-22-2001: Message edited by: Carston ]

[Sleepy]

Alan, I have no idea about anything with that gun :D BUT I think it looks pretty cool! Congrats and a very happy (early) Birthday to you. I am glad you got your gun and were able to shoot some rounds off! :)

[John Henry]

Alan,
That "appears" to be about the same size (how be it hammerless) as Momma's P10-45.
Are you in a position to do size comparison between those two?

The P10 seems very "cartridge specific", also. I'm hoping that a few hundred more rounds and some judicious polishing of the feed ramp will relieve the problem.

She, currently, carries 230gr. jacketed round nose ammo. .... "zero" feed problems there. Corbon, as with your's, feeds well. Other JHP's .... well, let's just say I've seen more "failure to feed" then I'm content with.

[The Brick SVPH]

Hey Alan, Congrats on the new gun!
Only to bad about the problems you have with it.

[Gunslinger]

Actually the old Simmerling LM4, now marketed by American Derringer Corporation as the "Vest Pocket", is a smaller .45 ACP. :p But in truth it is not a true semi-auto.....or an auto of any type for that matter. While it looks very similar to that and/or a 1911 the slide must be manually operated. Just a bit of trivia. ;)

Alan, have you called Para and asked them what they might suggest for some tweaking to get it to function with other brands/types of ammo? Jim, Bubba, Soldier, Gray or a lot of others here might also have some ideas. You might want to post a seperate topic in the Gunsmithing forum asking if anyone has any notions.
Once the reliability factor was corrected and given some practice and spare mags that would have to be the ultimate deep concealment gun! Who could ever argue with something that will drop in a pocket and packs a seven round .45 caliber punch? :cool:

[Jim V]

1911/1911A1 = single stack, single action, self loading pistol. P/O LDA's are not 1911's. My nit. Congrats on the new pistola. I hope you find the correct ammo to use.

[Gusgus]

Well, my PT-145 is 3/8" smaller in length, 1/8" shorter in height, 7 oz. lighter and holds 10+1 of .45 ACP. Of course the PT-145 is not a 1911 design, and it does have a bad habit of cracking frames! :eek:

Very nice. Too bad about the finicky feeding problems, but from what I hear, that's par for 1911s. As far as being the smallest 1911, I thought Springflield just released a 3" Micro Compact. Should be just about the same size as your C6.45.

Question, is that pistol D/A or S/A? Take care, and I hope you're able to tune it to feed the ammo you desire.

[jimfox]

Having just acquired a Para-Ordnance P12.45 that I though was pretty small, I'm envious of your little Para Carry.

The Para P12 is the same height as my Kimber Ultra CDP, about .5 inches longer in the barrel/slide and a shade chubbier in the grip area. Long range I think it's going to get shifted to the "trade-for-something-more-interesting" side of the gun box, but so far I have no complaints. Based on very limited (less than 100 rounds) playing around I can say that so far it has functioned flawlessly. Fed two different brands of ball (S&B and Federal) and two different HPs (Federal HS 230gr. HPs and some handloads with the Speer 200gr. Flying Ashtray).

I suspect your feeding problem may be with the magazine and/or the height/fitting of the magazine retention do-hicky. My factory magazine doesn't fit quite as high into the mag well as I'd like. Have to really whap that sucker with the heel of my hand when seating it with a closed breech and rounds in the magazine. There is enough tension from this that the magazine release is a bit too sensitive for my taste. It has worked so far, and I've carried it around the place here for a couple of days with no problem, but I don't really trust it. As I don't have a second factory mag. (and don't want to fork over the bucks for a factory standard 12 rounder), I don't know if this is idiosyncratic or pandemic.

Anyway... I noticed from your pictures that you seem to indicate a loading of 3 - 2 - 2 for your new toy. I recall you've indicated a loading of 1 - 1 - 1 - 1.... preference for your alternating loads. Is that just the way the picture was took, or have you had a change in philosophy? (Or am I just a victum of "Old Timers" disease.) I haven't gotten around to getting my glasses changed, so I'm still waiting to "get-a-roundtoit" for checking out varying POI for the different loads.

[Sir Knight]

jimfox, I still alternate every other round but since this model only likes Cor-Bon, there is no alternating possible. Frustrated, I just threw a handful of bullets into the photo to show capacity with no other significance beyond that. Just as a side note, my 9mm load now is 115grn Speer Gold Dot alternated with 147grn Winchester SXT.

Gusgus, It's a personal thing but I just don't like double stacks on a concealed gun. Consequentaily, I don't like single stack on a full-size gun. Either of these two combinations just doesn't FEEL right in MY hand. For me, a compact gun has to be single stack and a full-size gun has to be double stack. Originally posted by Jim V: <STRONG>1911/1911A1 = single stack, single action, self loading pistol. P/O LDA's are not 1911's. My nit ...</STRONG>Their catalog calls it a 1911 :confused:

John Henry, I have their catalog which pictures all of their guns in actually size and laying mine on top of the P10-45 shows the two guns to be identical in size. I'm assuming that my gun is a single stack version of the P10-45.

[Bear One]

Nice pistol. I first saw a picture of one on the back of Jan. 2002 Guns & Ammo, and thought what a pistol. However I will admit the trigger caught my eye, and I was disappointed. While reading the mag., low and behold, Springfield Armory has a new Micro Compact 1911A1, with 1911 trigger, 3" barrel, 5.7" overall length, Novack tritium sights and a 24-ounce weight. The Para Carry is 6.5" long, 4.7" high.

From springfieldarmory.com:

"Springfield Armory Adds 3" Micro Compact Pistol To Its Industry Leading Product Line
Nov 30th, 2001

(Geneseo, Ill.) - Springfield Armory has added the smallest handgun in its 1911 package, made to Springfield's exacting quality and design standards. The .45 caliber Bi-Tone Micro Compact pistol is ideal when lifesaving reliability and ultra small and lightweight size are important.

The Micro Compact is fitted with Novak® patented Low Mount Trijicon Tritium Night Sites that glow in the dark for added performance. The barrel is hammer forged and supplied with the tapered bull barrel system that eliminates the need for the barrel bushing. The ramped and fully supported barrel greatly improves feeding reliability of self-defense ammunition. Combined with the captive dual recoil spring system are the key components to Springfield's ability to produce such a short-barreled 1911 while maintaining total reliability. "No other factory 1911 of this size is as reliable," says Dennis Reese, Springfield Armory Co-Chairman.

Springfield's new Extreme Carry Bevel Treatment, which rounds off all sharp edges, makes holstering and concealed carry of the Micro Compact easier and more comfortable.

The Micro Compact includes many additional popular and proven features, such as:

- Forged aluminum hard coat anodized alloy frame
- Forged steel slide
- Ultra Slimline Cocobolo grips
- Ambi-thumb safety
- .45 Caliber
- 3" Hammer forged tapered bull barrel
- Novak® Tritium Night Sights
- 4.7" Sight Radius
- Weight: 24 oz.
- Length: 5.7" overall

Like all Springfield Armory firearms and Professional Optics, the Micro Compact 1911 is backed by an exclusive Lifetime Warranty. "

:D :eek: ;) :cool:

[Gusgus]

Wow Bearone,
That's the pistol I was referring to. Can't believe it's that tiny! I find it extremely intriguing.

Alan,
I wasn't recommending the PT-145 over your C6.45. As you probably already know, the Taurus has a problem with cracked frames. Even though I love the size and capacity, I could never trust it with my life until Taurus addresses this issue.

Now that new Springfield Micro is a different story.... :)

[Richard]

Fud, I envy you as this is one great pistol. The trigger pull is that good. I am not sure if I will get it or a P7.45 (LDA).

loknload, this is a lot slimmer pistol than the CS45. The CS45 is a chunky little pistol that rides in my Galco Fletch which is made for a Sig P226. I like my CS45 and I would recommend to anyone after a trigger job.

Regards,

Richard

[Sir Knight]

From what you say, it appears that Springfield's model is indeed smaller (and maybe even better ... depending on how it feeds & shoots) than the gun that I just recently purchased. However, I believe that there is a certain line that we should just not cross.

S&W has a lite-weight 12oz J-frame snubbie chambered for the .357magnum. I have the .38special version and I have a hard enough time shooting it accurately with +P ammo even with laser sights. I can't even imagine what it would be like to shoot full-power .357mags out of a gun so lite.

Another example is the Kahr MK40. I have the 9mm version (the MK9) and it's a fine gun but I had and sold the MK40 because FOR ME it was just too small of a gun to hold on to and shoot accurately with full-power loads.

The Springfield Armory Micro Compact 1911A1 MIGHT be in the same boat as the above examples. I don't want to pre-judge a gun before trying it but a .45ACP that weighs only a pound and a half might be too small & too lite to accurately shoot a .45ACP unless you have a lot of practise.

This is just my own personal thoughts based on my experience with the MK40 mentioned above. I would be interesting in hearing someone's shooting experience with it.

Gusgus, I understood what you were saying :D I just meant that even if the PT-145 worked flawlessly, I just have this "thing" about double stack compact pistols -- they just don't feel "right" in MY hand. Consequently, single-stack full-size guns also don't feel "right" in MY hand.

loknload, I'm sure that everybody here knows that I love S&W pistols and I have more S&W autos than all of my other guns combine and while I like the operations (traditional DA/SA) of the CS45 better compared to the C6-45 (LDA which isn't true "double action" because the striker has to be primed), the C6-45 feels much more compact and easier to conceal than the CS45 even though they both are the same length.

[Grayfox]

I agree with Jim V. It ain't a 1911. But that don't mean its not a nice pistol. I like it! What it is, is a variation on Para's LDA double action pistol based on the 1911 design. I have shot the full sized LDA and have to admit that its about the smoothest DA auto I've ever tried. I like it so much that I've even considered buying one. :D

As to your problems. The double feed is most likely a magazine problem. General feeding problems aren't uncommon in brand new pistols due to the tightness of the parts and will often disappear as the gun breaks in. Another major bug-a-boo with ultra compacts is getting the springs right. If your feeding problems don't work out after a couple of hundred rounds, try replacing the recoil spring(s). If that doesn't fix it, I suggest you contact Para.

[Bear One]

Alan,

I was not running down your nice pistol. I was only pointing out that Springfield had come out with a new pistol so near the same size that someone must have spies in the business. :eek:

Personally, I will stick with my new Champion. I like the size and the way it shoots.

Good luck with the Para Carry. Shoot about 500 rounds through it. If you are still having problems, send it North! ;)

[Gunslinger]

Alan, you make a very good point about going too far with a good thing. The .45 obviously can have recoil and that recoil can become excessive if we try to get the package too small. I set out to build the worlds smallest six shot .44 Magnum revolver. I was successful and have built two now. But to be honest accuracy suffers and they things are just down right painful to shoot.

Gray, I sort of feel the same way about the Para LDA line. The first time I saw one in a picture I gasped and that of it as sacrilege. My first thought was why and even read one of the magazine gun writters to say it was the answer to a question never asked. But then, like you, I tried one. Nice. It still looks weird to me to see a double action trigger on what is other wise a more or less traditional 1911. But a person certainly can not argue about the kind of job Para did.

[Sir Knight]

Bear, I didn't take it that way at all :) I guess I more disappointed with the Laws of Physics which none of us can do much about. I would love to own the S&W340 but I would have to shoot .38specials out of it and I already have that in my 342. I thought the MK40 would have been the ultimate CCW until I realized that I couldn't hit what I was aiming at with full-power loads because there wasn't enought gun to hold onto and traded it in for a MK9.

By the way, the gun isn't a TRUE double-action because the striker has to be primed before each shot. In the event of a misfire, you have to rack the slide again in order for the trigger to work unlike a Beretta, SIG, S&W traditional Double-Action where a second pull on the trigger will raise and drop the hammer again.

[9x19]

Guys,

Recoil in a handgun, be it a wheel gun or a real gun, SHOULD affect only one thing... speed of follow-up shots.

If your first shot from any gun is on target, then your second and third should be as well. If they're not, it's beacuse you aren't waiting long enough to be... back on target.

Now, shooter comfort may be affected, but that's not the same thing as a lightweight gun being inaccurate... don't blame the gun for the shooter's short-comings. I've had to accept my own, and I still LOVE lightweight guns. I'm just a little slower with the hard-kickers on second and third shots...

FWIW

[Dennis Foote]

I know I'm gunna get flamed hard for this, but here goes. Once again I'm reading about some poor soul's 1911 that just won't work right out of the box!!! This is precisely the reason why I have no use for them. :rolleyes: There is another one, on another board, wailing about how he spent $900 on a bum Kimber!!! Alan, bud, ditch that evil 1911 and get yourself a Glock 36!! It has the same ammo capacity, and moreover, it WILL work right out of the box without any of the polishing, fitting, and gooing over, that O'l Slabsides needs just to wake up!!! :eek: It comes with two mags and you can buy more right off the dealer's shelf!!!! :p It also eats anything I feed it. :cool: It's the size of a G19, only thinner. Do the right thing. Buy the G36!!!! :)

Now, as Captain Kirk was fond of saying: "shields up, Mr. Sulu"!!!! :D

[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: Dennis Foote ]

[USP45usp]

FUD:

No wonder it won't feed right. You've got three brass and four silver cases in one mag. Now, any man (well women or other) worth their salt knows that brass (gold color) and silver don't mix, it's, well, tacky.

So, feed it either color coordinated ammo or it will never fire right. (hands on hips pose), everyone knows that!

As for the feed problem (seriously), I had to "feed" (by hand) a full mag of 9mm though the AB-10 with the 50rd mag before it fed without problems. I don't know if the ramp had to be "broken in" or what but it will feed from the two 36's and the after market 50 without problems. I know, different guns, but both with feeding problems. Just remember to keep the barrel pointed in a safe direction!

USP45usp

[Tony from Finland]

Hey Fud, as a S&W man you're used to safeties that have to be pushed up to fire, right? How does the 1911-style safety feel like, had any problems with it?

[Sir Knight]

Dennis, keep pushing me and I just may end up buying a Glock :p I've been seriously looking into them the past couple of months and when cash flow improves, my next purchase just may be a Glock!

Tony, I don't have a problem flicking the safety off but do have a problem putting it back on. With the S&W's I can keep my sights on the target and flip the safety either on or off with just my thumb. With the 1911, in order to re-engage the safety, I have to change my hold slightly -- thus taking the sights off the target.

[Dennis Foote]

Allan,
Consider this to be another push!! :) My odyssey into the world of the .45 began with the Glock 30. It took some convincing to get me that far, being a 9mm man and all, but once I arrived, I took a look at the size of those rounds!!! I reasoned that a bigger hole going in was better than depending on expansion from a 9mm to get the job done. Alas, I made a lousy choice from an ergonomic viewpoint, actually not, for the G30 was a Christmas present that appeared after my loving wife confiscated my former carry pistol: Glock 26. The grip of the G30 was to fat!!! Into the safe it went. Thus started my search for an ergonomically pleasing .45 caliber pistol. One sad result was my displeasing flirtation with the Taurus PT-145. I thought that I had found my dream carry pistol. Indeed it was, for 600 rounds!! I found that I could shoot sub 2in groups at 25 yards with it. Then the frame cracked!!! :( I do not consider the 1911 because my experience with it was lousy from the start. I had the chance to shoot a Colt Gold Cup at the range one day. I didn't even get through one mag full and it jammed. I also hear about many 1911 owners having to have this and that done to their pistols to get them to work right out of the box. Not the sort of thing I want to spend my hard earned money on. I want a gun that goes bang without having to fiddle with it. That is why I carry the Glock 36. Incidently, I traded my G30 and all my mags for the G36. I also got 4 mags included in the deal!!! My advice is: try the G36 or the G30. Then, go do the right thing and buy the Glock!!!! :)

[USP45usp]

ewwww, glocks :D. I don't know what it is about a glock, it just don't look right to me. I don't know if it's the "rear end" or just the general look. If'n I was a politician I would ban it cause it "looks ugly" (aka the reason they banned some rifles)((Just joking all)).

As for the Para, I bet the recoil is a b****. I know in my little .40 (kel-tec) it's a real beast. I still can't fire it lefty without it trying to jump out of my hand. I'm thinking of having it ported and I've already put the extensions onto the mag so my little pinky can help. How is the Para with this regard?

Hope you have fun with it. I would reconsider the Glock, it's just so "ugly" :D.

USP45usp

(To say something good about the glock, only the glock and the HK passed the heat/cold/drop/kick/etc.. test without jamming or having any problems. So, it is a proven piece of hardware).