[Sir Knight]

Don't know too much about rifles. As a matter of fact, I have very little hands on expereince with them but I've been thinking about getting an AR-15 when money eventually permits and I've been doing some research into it and narrowed it down to the following ... http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/Images/pcwa2x14m4my.gif (http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/pcwa2x14m4my.asp)
A new model from Bushmaster, this XM15 E2S M4 Type Post-Ban Carbine features a lightweight 14.5" Barrel machined in the distinctive M4 profile with a permanently attached Mini Y Comp muzzle brake. This configuration yields a total barrel length of 16" to comply with Post-Ban regulations. A BATF approved fixed tele-style buttstock is added to complete the military look of this new carbine. The 14.5" barrel is chrome lined in both bore and chamber for maximum longevity and ease of maintenance. The barrel's button rifling, in a 1 x 9" right hand twist, will stabilize a wide range of currently available ammunition with bullet weights up to 69 grains. The M16A2 dual aperture, rear sight system offers both windage and elevation adjustments - elevation is calibrated from 300 to 800 meters. The two different apertures give either a short range, quick target acquisition sight picture or a smaller “peep” aperture for long distance accuracy. The tele-stock style buttstock is pinned and fixed in an “open” position and has been BATF approved for use on Post-Ban manufactured carbines.
As with all other Bushmasters, the forged 7075T6 aircraft quality aluminum receivers are finished in a non-reflective mil. spec. hard anodize for durability, and include all M16A2 design improvements such as cartridge case deflector, last round bolt hold-open and raised ridges for magazine release button protection. A mil. spec. manganese phosphate coating insures complete protection against corrosion or rust on barrel and other exposed steel parts of the weapon. The M4-16 Carbine is shipped in a lockable, hard plastic case - complete with 10 round magazine, carrying sling, and Operator's Safety and Instruction Manual. http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/Images/PCWA2S14AK.gif (http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/pcwa2s14ak.asp)
This special model of our “Shorty” carbine includes a 14.5" Heavy Barrel with our AK74 style muzzle brake permanently attached so as to comply with the minimum 16" legal length. This AK Muzzle Brake is a very effective accessory for controlling muzzle climb and relieving recoil. The latest M16A2 sight system adjusts for windage and elevation and the dual “flip-up” offers large and small apertures. Its elevation knob is graduated from 300 to 800 meters so that range adjustments may be made without the need to calculate bullet drop. Ribbed “Shorty” handguards, the rugged trapdoor buttstock, and pistol grip - all molded of thermoset polymer composite - keep weight to a minimum. A heavy profile barrel, with mil. spec. chrome lined bore and chamber, and 1 in 9" rifling, offers great accuracy and durability, and is manganese phosphate finished for complete protection against corrosion and rust. The forged Upper and Lower receivers feature all latest A2 design improvements. Bushmaster's XM15 E2S 14.5" Bbl. AK Shorty Carbine is shipped complete with a 10 round magazine, carrying sling and our safety and operating manual in our clamshell style carrying case. http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/Images/PCWA2S16.gif (http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/pcwa2s16.asp)
When speed and light weight are needed, this “Shorty” carbine is the right choice. Carbine length, ribbed handguards keep swing weight to a minimum and the handguards, pistol grip and trapdoor style A2 buttstock are all molded of rugged thermoset polymer composite material. The heavy profile barrel, with mil. spec. chrome lined bore and chamber, offers exceptional accuracy for its length and is externally manganese phosphate finished for complete protection against corrosion and rust - as are all critical steel parts of the carbine. The latest M16A2 sight system, fitted with a dual flip-up aperture for either short range shots at moving targets or long distance accuracy, offers adjustment for windage and elevation. The elevation knob is graduated from 300 to 800 meters so that range adjustments may be made without the need to calculate bullet drop. The forged, lightweight 7075T6 aircraft quality aluminum receivers have all M16A2 design improvements including cartridge case deflector, last round bolt hold-open and raised ridges for magazine release button protection. The XM15 E2S “Shorty” Carbine is shipped complete with 10 round magazine, operation, safety, and instruction manual and carrying sling - all in our lockable, Bushmaster hard shipping case. ... Can somebody tell me in simple terms what is the difference between these three and which one would make a better choice? Thanks in advance.

[ 06-03-2001: Message edited by: Alan Fud ]

[Carston]

Alan,
Of the 3 you have picked I would take the 16inch barreled A2. The 2 shorty's have 14.5 inch barrels and that effects velocity, accuracury and overall stopping power.
You may also look into the Dissapator with the heavy barrel and a the full A2 iron sight radius (don't let Cliff know I know a thing about that :eek:
Or you could look at the 16 inch Vmatch with a free floated NM barrel.

Or you could save money and buy a Knight's Stoner M3 flat top and forget the others. See I have the others and the Stoner soon to be paid off :rolleyes: and I still think I need to have a 16 inch A2 :confused:

Want info on where to get mags, just ask me

Carston

[Frenchy]

I can only speak to the one I have shot, and that would be the AK Shorty. I liked the balance and the site picture was OK for these old eye's. The tele-stock style buttstock on the M-4 wouldn't be my "cup of tea" as I don't think it would be very comfortable. The AK style muzzle break does a great job on an already light recoil. That's my 2 cents worth. :)

[stu]

Alan- As a whole its better to go with the full length barrel. There have been problems with the shorter, i.e. 14", barrels. Most of these problems have been due to a lack of pressure. This can cause the action not to cycle unless your using hi pressure ammo. The other thing that can cause this are the short front hand guard. The hand guard holds the gas system, so the longer the hand guard, the longer the forward gas system.

[Gusgus]

I'm not as experienced with ARs as some may be, but you asked for opinions so here's mine.

I would not buy the muzzle break, 14.5" barreled versions (top & middle), as in addition to what others have already told you, they also tend to be excessively LOUD. If you want a short barreled (16") carbine, I'd get the Dissipator. This carbine has a few advantages that the "Shorty" doesn't. First, the sight radius is long, like the full size 20" models (compare the location of the front sight on the Dissipator and the Shorty). This would make the Dissipator more accurate with iron sights, than the other 16" barreled carbines. Second, the full size handgrips tend to offer better protection of the barrel. This is the Bushmaster that I own, and I'm very happy with it.


http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/Images/PCWA2S16D.gif This versatile carbine has features that make it unique in the Bushmaster XM15 family. Its operating system's gas block is located behind the front sight base and under the ribbed Dissipator handguards. The full-length handguards and correct placement of sight base allow for optimal use of the full sight radius designed into the M16A2 sight system. Handguards are molded of thermoset polymer composite, and their air vents and internal heat shields keep the barrel cool during periods of rapid rife. The 16" heavy barrel is externally manganese phosphate finished - and chrome lined in bore and chamber to offer excellent accuracy and long life in a carbine
length. The M16A2 sight system offers adjustment for windage and elevation - the elevation knob is graduated from 300 to 800 meters so that range adjustments may be made without the need to calculate bullet drop. The dual flip-up aperture is designed for either short range shots at moving targets or long distance accuracy. Forged, lightweight, aircraft quality aluminum receivers have all the latest design improvements. The XM15 E2S Dissipator Carbine is shipped complete with 10 round magazine, safety, instructional manual and carrying sling.

[ 06-03-2001: Message edited by: Gusgus ]

[Gusgus]

Can somebody tell me in simple terms what is the difference between these three and which one would make a better choice? Thanks in advance.

Sorry Alan,
I was so busy giving you my opinion, that I failed to answer your question. The only differences between these 3 carbines are in the stocks and barrels. The top one has an M-4 "look alike" fixed stock, 14.5" barrel, and welded muzzle break. The middle one has a standard stock, 14.5" barrel, and welded muzzle break. The bottom one has a standard stock, and 16" barrel.

As stated before, the 16" barrel is preferred over the 14.5" barrels. I have been told that the shorter barrels (under 16") may not allow the .223 or 5.56 round to reach "fragmentation" velocity. During one of our recent police actions (I don't remember the country, but it was the story "Black Hawk Down"), Special Forces where using 11" barreled carbines. To their dismay, the short barrel would not allow the 5.56 round to reach proper velocity, turning their expensive carbines into little more than fancy .22s.

If you're definitely narrowed it down to these 3, the Shorty (bottom), is the recommended model.

[Bubba]

I do not claim to be an AR expert by ANY means. But I can tell you about the AK Shorty. I own one. And I have shot the dickens out of it. Is it LOUD? DUH! lol Yeah. It is. Does it have a big flash picture in the dark? Uh huh. Big orange ball. Does the front of the barrel move when you shoot it? Not a lick. At this afternoon's match several people commented on how fast I could get the second shot off because there was NO muzzel rise. In fact, several people commented that it did not look like that gun had any recoil at all. And in truth, it doesn't.

I like the little shorty. It stores well in it's little hiding place in my truck. It has shot everything I have fed it. It has shown no problems with any mags. I like it better than the colapsing stock as I can get a consistant cheek weld with the full stock that I can not get from the colapsible.

The bottom line for me is... I WIN with it. In the last 4 or 5 tactical matches, I have finished in the top 3 everytime. I have a good combo with this gun and the ACOG REFLEX II in a forward mount from the carry handle. I have the 12 MOA triangle sight. It is very fast for me. I loaned it out this afternoon to a buddy who's battery died on his AR. (Did he learn something today about Mr Murphy? lol :) ) He REALLY liked this setup and shot well enough to give me a good run for my money.

I am not telling you that you should buy the AK, Alan. That choice is up to you. What I AM saying, is I have GREAT luck with mine. I shoot it a lot. And I am keeping it.

As before, my ramblings and $4.50 will buy you a Shiner. YMMV.

Bubba

[tree]

# 1 looks cooler. Also allows some nifty extras to be mounted on the barrel. The fake retractable stock, looks good, but if it doesn't work, my opinion is why bother?

#2 (AK muzzle brake) Loud, and reduced recoil. Testimony on this board shows some advantages.

#3. Bushmaster Carbine - (like my second AR although mine has the A3 flat top) Looks just fine. Works well.

I guess if I were buying a second AR now... it would be #1, but I would put a conventional butt stock on it. My second one would be a carbine in as much as my first AR is a 20 " Hbar.

The bushmaster is a terrific AR no matter what style you get.

Just evaluate what you want the gun to do most of the time.
Compete in High Power rifle matches, Varmit hunt, self defense carbine, combat shoots, etc. Of course the beauty of the AR is a simpe swap of the complete upper means you can have a different gun for a different mission, with little work.
Try that with a mini 14...eh stu :D

Good Luck

[Cliff C]

Alan - You've received a lot of good input, so I'm not sure there's much that I can add.

I'd stick with a minimum of a 16" barrel for the reasons already mentioned. I've never found the need for a muzzle brake, but Bubba is pleased with his and I know of others who have them for its functional effect... not to be confused with folks who really want a flash hider, can't have it because they don't have a pre-ban and think the rifle won't look "cool" unless there's something sticking off the end of the barrel.

Carston (who is supposed to know ZILCH about iron sights.... :D) makes a real good point about the sight radius on the "shorty" models. The standard front sight post covers a lot of target area. On mine, the post almost totally covers the black on an NRA 100 yard small bore rifle target.

The BM "Dissipator" model gives you the 16" barrel with the longer sight radius as well as providing a full length gas tube.

My 16" shorty has the shorter gas tube, but has never had a problem.

One of THE great features about the AR (M-16) design is how easy it is to swap out uppers. Convert your 16" to a 20" with free floated barrel? Push out the two take down pins, remove and replace. A 15 second operation.

I hope we all gave you some ideas and please keep us posted on what you decide.

Cliff

[Sir Knight]

Thank you everyone for your input. The "Dissipator" is definitely something that I'm going to be looking into as a fourth alternative and based on what was said here, I think that I've eliminated one or two of them.

I won't be making this purchase (along with a shotgun) until year-end bonus time comes around but I like to start looking into things early (I did research on our 4x4 almost a year ahead of thime before we got one).

By the way, when the Brady Law was going into effect, I stocked up on mags (20 & 30 rounders) for the AR-15 so I'm in pretty good shape as far as that is concerned.

Thanks again one & all.

[stu]

Alan- I have a feeling that there will be a few ARs at EOSMII. This could give you a chance to shoot them and get a feel for which set up you like better. By that time Ill have 2, and will bring both if you'd like. :)

[Bubba]

Stu makes a goods point. There will be lots of ARs at EOSM. You can play and see which ones you like. (But just so you don't hurt Stu's feelings, be sure and ask to shoot those little mini-14 toys of his. ;) ) I should hear something on the Galile this week. And I got a line on a FAL with the Paratrooper folding stock this past weekend. We are gonna have all KINDS of toys at this shindig!! GRIN