[Jim V]

What would you say about a rifle that shoots MOA at 3,000 yards, has a range of over 4,000 yards at 7 degrees of elevation - with a 400+ grain bullet? That only has 27" of drop at 1,000 yards using a 300+ grain bullet? The .408 Cheyenne being developed by some shooters here in Michigan has done that, the latest time was in military trials in Canada.

The only problem would be where can you shoot it? A 1,000 yard range would be like shooting a good varmit rifle at 50 yards.

[Cliff C]

Jim - I'd say....

A) That I'd want to shoot it.

B) Legicritters like Waxman and Feinstein will be having kittens trying to ban it ala the .50BMG long range limousine destroyer. :rolleyes:

[Gunslinger]

MOA at 3000 yards! That is only 100 yards short of 1.75 miles. :eek:
I'm trying to visualize this. It is two miles from our house to the highway. The thought of acheiving that kind of groups at that range is almost inconceivable.

[Jim V]

I know the people working on developing the rifle and ammunition. They are interested in military sales only and the military - for some reason - is interested in the rifles and the round. Cost to the military - 1 rifle, spare barrels, day scope, night scope, suppressor, spare parts, hard case is going to be 5 figures. Expensive? Sure. Worth it? Damn right.

A US sniper sitting in a hide on the side of mountain A while terorist is on side of mountain B. Kabang on A, dead terr on B.

I'd want a rifle, I will not be able to afford a Cheyenne Tactical rifle but I bet there will be people chambering rifles for this round once it sees military usage.

[ 10-04-2001: Message edited by: Jim V ]

[Gunslinger]

Oh, you know that once the ronud is fully developed and released to the military there will be no shortage of people wildcatting it for civilian use.
The idea intrigues me. But, to be honest, one would probably be a waste in my hands. I'm a handgunner and always consider myself lucky when I shot tight groups at anything over 100 yards regardless of the rifle. But for a true rifleman this cartrridge could be revolutionary.

[Tom S.]

I'm probably missing something here.
I recall reading about the development of this confection in TAR, and its mighty impressive.
But even using the common one inch at 100 yards = 1 MOA, at 3K yards one MOA comes out to a 30 inch circle. Still impressive, but lots of room to miss bad guys. I know a 400 grain bullet would buck the wind well, but 3K yards is a long ways for the winds to have an effect on it. It might well shoot "Minute of armored car" at this range, but then what would it do that a wire-guided missle couldn't do a lot better?
Like I said, I'm probably missing something, please straighten me out!
Tom

[Cliff C]

Tom - That's a good question.

When I read Jim's post, I figured these were max effective numbers. Just to stir the pot and offer conjecture, a stated accuracy of MOA at 3K yards doesn't mean it isn't capable of sub MOA at a distance shorter than that. 1,500 yards? 2,000 yards? Dunno. I haven't seen any info on the cartridge other than what Jim posted.

The longest recorded sniper kill of which I am aware was recorded by Carlos Hathcock - 2,500 yards using a .50 BMG round from an M-2 upon which Sgt. Hathcock had mounted his Unertl scope.

Such feats ARE possible. For the Cheyenne cartridge, I'm going to be REAL interested in the specifics of the delivery platform.

Cliff

[Eric of Indiana]

Jim, It won't do anything a TOW missile won't do better, but at $180,000 each for the TOW, it would do some things much cheaper. The .408 would be, what, $3-5? IT may also be safer for the troops, after all, when a TOW is launched, where it came from is pretty obvious, where a bullet came from is a little harder to figure out.
Eric