Buying from the enemy


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michael t
10-08-2004, 11:23 PM
This question has been on my mind for a long time. Why are Americans so in love with weapons of our enemys I talking AK's SKS MAK,ect. Made by theWarsaw pac countries , Russian , China these people our not our friends and never will be yet we buy their weapons and ammo as fast as we can. How many American soliders have died and will die from their weapons and ammo. How many today? They sell them all over the world to any one with the money.
I see people call Kerry a traitor for what he did in Nam yet these same people have no problem helping to support a commie country by buying there junk.Are you not helping our enemys?Just because were not shooting at each other at present time doesn't mean they stopped planing our defeat.
You want us out of the UN because of way they vote against us ,yet you buy the rifles and hand guns from these same countries. There is no Russian Warsaw pac or Chinesse weapons , ammo in my home and never will be. Just something Ive been thinking about.

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ducktapehero
10-09-2004, 01:27 AM
Made by theWarsaw pac countries What? Are they back again? I thought the cold war was over.

Popeye
10-09-2004, 01:42 AM
Do you own anything made in Japan? How about Germany? We beat them too.

Rabbi
10-09-2004, 01:52 AM
I hate Communists and their "ism". I love quality, I love excellence. I could care less if a few hundred dollars of my money makes Marshal Kalashnikov fouteen rubles or so.

I fear and loathe the Communist Chinese and their system. I own a MAK-90 and a Chinese Nork SKS, paid for second hand so I think I just enriched an American.

I do try to boycott those societies that abuse their people but about 90% of what is available to us is made in little third world countries that would like to see us die. Do I quit buying everything not made in the U.S.?? Sorry, Bubba but your view is unrealistic at best.

If you're serious, and G-d bless you if you are, congratulations on being able to earn the 300 or 400K per annum which would allow you to buy American products only. I make less than that and make no apologies to any man for my spending habits.

I envy you for your purity.

Rabbi

armoredman
10-09-2004, 09:20 AM
I have firearms made in Russia, (Mosin M38), by a government that no longer exists. We have two handguns made by a FORMER communist country, (CZ 2075 RAMI 9mm, and CZ75 PO1 9mm), the Czech Republic. I also have a Winchester 1200 shotgun, and a Tanfoglio (Italian) EA40 pistol. Guess I just like some foreign made guns better. Blame it all on the millions of police officers who carry Austrian made Glocks and German made SiG, not to mention Walther, all companies/countries that made weapons to be used against us, or were our mortal enemies at one time.
Call us shortsighted, foolish, or maybe we are bigger than that, able to rise above old hatreds, etc. Or mabe, it's just because I got screaming deals on all these weapons I could never have gotten on anything American made, so nyah! :neer:

Blammer
10-09-2004, 02:32 PM
Don't Carewhere my weapons came from or the political persuasions of their makers - nearly every industerilized country has an arms production center... If I buy a weapon from a liscensed importer, it's MINE! ;) As to the weapons of our former enemies... consider the (former)Warsaw Pact countries: The $exchange that they received for their surplus 20th Century weapons is helping them retool their militaries to NATO specs! :up:
Poland is fighting beside us in Iraq, and our B52's were staged into targets there through Hungarian airfields :up:
Just a couple of examples. ;)
Welcome to the 21st. Century - where we can posess the 20th. Century weapons of our former and 'potential' foes.
BTW: What about the weapons of the 'neturals'? ... I have Swedish and Swiss origin weapons. And while we are at it, I own a couple of French weapons too :( They hate our guts, but we haven't fought against the French since we were a collection of British colonies. :duh:
Reassess... I think you need to broaden your viewpoint :P

USP45usp
10-09-2004, 02:54 PM
Why?

AR-15's and clones made in the USA, EXSPENSIVE and not all that great in quality or realiablity. I am getting one, a Bushmaster with two uppers, one made by Colt, used, still the most expansive that I ever bought $700.

AK Clone by other countries: $300
SKS: $300 for the hardest to get
MAK-90: $400

Will Colt who made my 7.62 upper made hi-cap mags for it... NO. They have refused to allow us "peasants" the ability to get Colt hi-caps (the sporter was made with a 10rd only so hi-cap is the right phrase). Only for government or military only, *******S!

Why pay for American goods that aren't as good as our "enemies" weapons? Why spend more money on American ammo when the "enemies ammo" is less expansive? The AK has been in service longer than the M-16. As a matter of fact, the M-16 is being phased out for another, I believe, foriegn(sp) rifle (I don't know if I am right or not). Why does SWAT use the HK's or the UZI's instead of an American product? Because they are cheaper? No, because they work.

And the main reason why we have to buy these weapon systems, BECAUSE THEY CAN'T BE MADE IN THE USA DUE TO THE GUN LAWS! And when they are made in the USA, the prices are just too high for us "middle class" peasants.

I would love to buy a true M-16 but the laws say that I can't due to the 1986 law which states that no new machine guns can be sold to us peasants.

I would love for more American companies to make a machine gun but they won't due to others in the world know and trust the AK's (real ones) and the HK's and the UZI's and that an American company can't pick up extra income from us mere peasants since we can't buy anyway.

Also, with the armed forces phasing out the M-16's, we in the gun community should be happy about that, due to the M-16 is a 1950's varient and lots were made before 1986... but what do you think is going to happen to those weapons? Yuppers, they will be destroyed and not sold to us peasants. I would venture to guess that many, many thousands of machine guns would become available on the market today once they are replaced and the prices would be within "reaching distance" of us peons, but that won't happen.

So why do we buy from our "enemies", because the price is right, there are enough STANDARD CAPACITY mags out there for them, and they work. Unlike American guns which are limited, expensive, and don't always have the quality of other nations.

Wayne

*ps to add: Until we get rid of all these laws, I will buy what I want, what others don't want me to have, and I really don't give a hoot who makes them, only that they did and I can afford and have.

ScarletPumpernickel
10-09-2004, 02:59 PM
michael t, I agree with you. There is no wonder that we appear hypocritical to others.

I don't think it is necessarily quality that we are searching for as the foreign made goods are not any better that American made. It has to be price. We can't compete with slave labor and third world wages.

And, yes, we are financing our own demise.

I have a few foreign made items, but they were not bought from the enemy.....at least they were not the enemy at the time I bought them.

There is not ONE communist made anything on the premises.

Sometimes we don't have a choice, but if there is a choice, I will always buy American. Regardless of price.

USP45usp
10-09-2004, 05:50 PM
SP,

I too will buy American when I get the chance. But when it comes to my faith in the realibility of the product, I hate to say that I must go elsewhere. When it comes to what I am able to get, then I have to do the same.

I am buying, for way too much, an American made AR-15. It's a pre-ban and has two uppers. One of the uppers is for 7.62 which is the AK, Mak, SKS round, but it was made by colt.

Yet, if I were in a firefight, the first rifle that I would grab is my Norinco SKS (china) with the removable 30rd mag. Why? Because it's been proven by me to work. It holds 30rds, the 7.62 mags are only up to 20 and are aftermarket, Colt, an AMERICAN COMPANY, refuses to build 20 or 30 round mags for their rifles. Other countries are more then happy to do so.

I trained on the M-16 while in the Air Force, and if you dropped it in the mud and the ejector port door was open at the time, then you had to clean, right there and then, no questions asked, because you got misfeeds. If you do the same with an AK or SKS, you don't have to clean (detailed), you just suck in alot of air and blow, that made it good 9 times out of 10.

Now, we could (but unlikely) have the chance to get ahold of a 1950 to 1985 issue M-16 since the military is phasing out that rifle. But we won't see it. They will be either destroyed or hold up for years until the next AWB comes around. Do you see Colt, an American company, calling for the rifles to be sold to us? NO NO NO. Hell, they even refuse to make standard cap mags.

Why the hell should we be so fair to the American gun companies when they are screwing us and denying us what we want? Why is it so damn bad that we buy what we can, when we can, no matter the country of make?

If American law forbides American companies, and those companies go along with it, then screw the American products (guns and guns only in this). I want a freakin machine gun or pistol. I don't have the damn money to pay the 10g's+ for a thompson but I can get the money for others, and the others are not of American make. I want as many EBR's as I can get, yet instead of getting two or more AK's, I put my money donw on American made Bushmaster, it just comes with an upper that belongs to the back stabbing American owned Colt company.

I will tell you this, if they had a fully auto UZI and AK, or even the semi auto versions, side by side and then an American made M-16 and the M-16 (or AR-15) was even $100 more, I would buy the American made product. That is if the quality was the same on all three (and for this, lets pretend that it is).

When it comes to certain things, I will buy American even if it is more expensive. Guns, well hell, you really can't make that decision. The American guns are either WAY overpriced, not as great quality, and the American laws stops them from doing what they can.

If we didn't have the stupid gun laws, I gurantee that most Americans would have an M-16 (if allowed) in their home, due to it is American made (or even Bushmaster).

You get a rifle or a pistol that costs $500 from an "enemy" that has been proven in the battle field or you pay thousands of dollars for the American version that hasn't proved itself and when proven, has been proven as not as good.

With these gun laws there are no more John Brownings out there, with the gun laws, there is no longer a want to make a new weapons system. Why, because the People can't buy them. The People are the ones that have the money and who will buy new products and will continue to do so, the government will only buy what is "agreed" and that is it. You can't state your business (as has Colt, who made their money, off the Poeple) on just the government.

Damn, I would love to be a purist also. I would love to have names on my **** that is American.. but America can't or won't or shouldn't do what we want.

Damn it, open your eyes.... look around you. America is losing to others because of the damn laws that won't allow it to be productive or inventative. You don't think that American's can't come up with a better weapons system, sure they can. But with only the government being allowed to buy (and you should see all the regs on what a private business has to jump through) then it's not worth it.

The times of Browning and others are gone. Gone from this country for they will not reward or allow those who create the systems to get more money from the People. It's over, gone, left, outta here, bye.

Wayne

budroe
10-09-2004, 08:39 PM
For the most part guns are tools. I try to buy the best I can afford. Based on quality for the price you pay, the combloc weapons are great deals. We once had a member here lambast anyone who owned a Ruger firearm because of some of the company's political moves. I buy Rugers because for the money, they're the strongest and among the best firearms made. When I buy a gun I always consider I may have to use it to save myself or a loved one. I don't care if it was made by Sadaam, if I think its good for the job I'm all for it.

armoredman
10-09-2004, 09:47 PM
I will say if I had my druthers, my rifle would be an FAL, made by a NATO ally,(even if they can be weenies), and my CZ PO1, made by another ally who sent troops from thier small military to help out troops in Iraq. Italy has always been a strong friend, (after we kicked thier butt in WWII), where my tanfoglio was made. As for the Mosin, like I said - that country is gone. Some weapons are collectors, for instance, if you hold a nice Mauser, do you disdain it because it was made by Nazis? I drive American, and buy Americn where I can, but being on the low end of life, I buy what I can afford, and a $70 mosin is more affordable than a $600 FAL clone....
If you buy only American, I will never denigrate you for standing up for what you belive - go for it! If it sounded like that, I apologise - it wasn't meant.

Bill Sanders
10-09-2004, 10:05 PM
ComBloc weapons are the most popular on the planet. As is the ammo for those weapons. There are a couple of reasons for this: They are (usually) reliable. And they are (Usually) cheap. Now, I don't own any (yet), I do want an AK or variant. After all, IF they ever do decide to invade, (Not likely) I will have a weapon that uses THEIR ammo. They know we are buying their weapons and ammo. They know that millions of Americans have guns. And many of those guns fire the same ammo they use. Which means we can use ammo from downed soldiers of theirs, and ammo that we can take from their stockpile that they would bring with them in their supply lines. That's why the likelyhood of an invasion from Russia, or China is slim. They would rather use politics to achieve their ends. Or, wait, and see if we govern ourselves into nonexistance. Which seems to be happening.

ScarletPumpernickel
10-10-2004, 03:53 AM
Substitute cars, clothing or any other goods for "guns" and give me the same arguments. My friend's, that's where our jobs went.

We have seen the enemy, and he is us.

Libertarian
10-10-2004, 11:45 AM
FWIW A large part of the former Warsaw PAct is now part of NATO. Poland makes AK47s and they are a strong ally of ours in the WOT.

The only place I will not buy anything that I can avoid buying from is the PRC. It is very hard to avoid but I really do try.

USP45usp
10-10-2004, 11:52 AM
SP,

You can't really put the cars in the agruement due to Honda and some others have factories over here.

I have an "American" car. It was "assembled" here (at least parts of it) but it has japenease(sp) parts, canadian parts, korean parts, etc..

I go to places like:

http://www.buyamerican.com/

I try to buy what I am able. Here is a good site that one can go to:

http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/

You can find (if you look) American goods for good prices at places like Wal-Mart or Bi-Mart. I just bought two pairs of "USA" jeans. They are made in America and are very compatible to the ol' bank account.

One of the great things about the gun hobby is the fact that many lubes, brushes, acessories(sp) are Amican made :). The same goes for holsters and the ammo. Now, I wished that more and more ammo companies would pick up the C&R calibers since there are alot outthere and we have to buy the ammo from the countries that made the gun. I think that winchester or whatever ammo company could make money if they made the CZ-52, Luger .30, etc.. ammo.

So, even though we've gotten "enemy" guns, we still buy American goods to ensure that they stay clean, that they are holstered, stay fed (reloaders, primers, powder) etc..

Wayne

Fug
10-10-2004, 12:19 PM
I only buy weapons made by American owned companies, made by American workers. I do the same with cars and everything else possible that I purchase. I realize that in some cases a specific piece may have been made overseas but I stay with names like Marlin, Henry, etc.

I mean no disrespect to anyone when I say that all the reasons I have ever heard just seem like rationalization to me, in other words it sounds like "I am not hypocrotical because.." and no matter how long or pedantic the text is, I just do not buy it.

I shoot an awful lot of rimfire and in the rimfire world the CZ's have taken over and I do not and will never own one, alot of folks will think I am wrong and how wonderful the CZ's are and better than this rifle or that rifle but I can honestly say that I have never met anyone in person who can outshoot me offhand with a CZ when I am using my 10/22. I shot a 39 out of 40 recently on metal plates in silhouette shooting with a home tweaked Ruger 10/22 and a 36X Weaver scope on it. No rationalizations will make me need a CZ.

I try to buy made in America only. I know sometimes my stuff is not but I still will always by American.

As far as the battle rifle stuff goes I really only need a few, and instead of having 20 ****py ones I got a couple of good ones made in the USA. Yes it cost me more but part of the reason it cost me more is I am helping to feed a fellow American's family.

The above are my thoughts, and I will continue to hold them. I think Patriotic Americans shoud purchase American made weapons and vehicles and I will continue to think so. I think its hypocritical not too.

I know that pisses off many online, and in the real world, but I know many "Harley" guys that are self proclaimed big "American Made" people who buy foreign made cars and firearms... they rationalize their thoughts too.

USP45usp
10-10-2004, 01:04 PM
FN,

I know where you are coming from.

I don't think of my C&R stuff as being bought by me from the "enemy". These things were made 50+ years ago and have some historical value to me due to I know that every country that they came from, we kicked their butts :).

Now, with the newer stuff, I did buy the HK .45. They didn't have American made "tupperwear" back (early 90's) then and the only thing on the market was the HK and the Glock, both are foriegn(sp) made but both countries are about the same (then anyway). I wouldn't buy any German made stuff now with what they did to us on Iraq. I've never bought anything french made (not even cheeses or wines) and I never will.

As for the rifles, the SKS's are C&R and I covered that above. Now, I had my choice in EBR's, the AR series, the AK series, Centme, etc.. I went with the AR's series made by Bushmaster that came with a Colt 7.62 upper. When I buy the carbin upper for the 5.56 I will be going with Bushmaster.

My hunting rifle is a 30-40 Krag. Sure, that is considered C&R also but I love the trap door and it's a good rifle but the major fact is, it's a real piece of American know how.

My next pistol will be an SA 1911 and if I want a Standard cap. 9mm or .40 then I will go with another SA.

But as life goes on I will probably end up with a modern CZ of some type and other foreign made guns. Why, just because, but I will buy American first if they have what I want but if they don't offer it then I have to go to those who do offer it.

Wayne

t driver
10-10-2004, 01:32 PM
Substitute cars, clothing or any other goods for "guns" and give me the same arguments. My friend's, that's where our jobs went.

We have seen the enemy, and he is us.

This is the real issue, and it has been in the making for a loooong time.

There is little we can do about it now. Many of us try and do what is right and have a concience about it, but for many it is not practical. Bigger than individuals who don't care where it came from is companies that don't care. When we don't even have a choice, we all lose. Most of my weapons are USA made. Not all. My cars are USA made, but the line of US vs. foreign made is very blurry. I try to buy products that are USA made when given the choice, but don't always have a choice.

Unfortunately there is no simple answer and it is not fair to be overly judgemental of people for their choices. This is a problem that is a couple generations old, (depending on age:) ) and is gaining speed. :irk:

"Global economy" and such. :mad:

USP45usp
10-10-2004, 01:40 PM
FN, SP, all.

I just started a thread in the members only forum. Tell me if it's a good idea to do so and also do you think that it would help the members to buy American only when they can. I know that I have alot of problems trying to find clothing that is American Made and the list that I'm starting could help our members to find the right stuff and get when we can.

Wayne

ScarletPumpernickel
10-10-2004, 06:26 PM
[QUOTE=t driver]This is the real issue, and it has been in the making for a loooong time.

There is little we can do about it now. QUOTE]

Why? We got here; we can go back. The longest journey begins with one step.

I don't give aid and comfort to our enemies....and that includes the EU. Fugger Nutter does not give aid and comfort to our enemies.

This "problem" is a basic economic principle. If you want an item you create a demand for that item. If there is a demand for that item, someone will make that item (supply). To make that item a person works. The item is sold and the owner of the company makes a profit. A portion of that profit goes to the worker and a portion goes to their government in the form of taxes. Their government uses a portion of those taxes to make bombs, anthrax, rockets, RPG's, ammunition, sarin gas, etc. They then use those items or sell them to other countries.

Those RPG's, AK-47's and roadside bombs being used in Afghanistan and Iraq may have been manufactured in Russia, China or the EU but they were bought and paid for by American citizens who demand cheap goods.

We call John Kerry a traitor (which he is), but are we that much better? People....., whether you know it or not, we are engaged in a fight for our lives. NO ONE is going to come to our defense. Think about it.

jimfox
10-10-2004, 09:42 PM
demand[/B] for that item. If there is a demand for that item, someone will make that item (supply). To make that item a person works. The item is sold and the owner of the company makes a profit. A portion of that profit goes to the worker and a portion goes to their government in the form of taxes.

We call John Kerry a traitor (which he is), but are we that much better? People....., whether you know it or not, we are engaged in a fight for our lives. NO ONE is going to come to our defense. Think about it.I do think about it. As one example, I think about our automotive industry in the 70s and 80s whining that we should "buy American" because they wouldn't compete with the quality - and quality countrol - of foreign competitors.

As USP45usp alludes, I would that our captains of industry had the same committment to the quality of American products as do the American importors (and general public) of their foreign competitors.

Buy American? Certainly, even at a premium - but give me something in the general price range that is comparable.

Our "Captins of Industry"! "Zero defect quality control? Ah, just some furin' pie in the sky concept - don't work - belive me. Buy my stuff instead. Just as good. Belive me. I'm an American and you should have to buy my stuff. Belive me. And I have this bridge in NY too. Belive me."

Nope, my theory? We want to be the best? We got to be the best. Else quit whining. And we are - in many areas. In those areas where we ain't - quit whining and look to see what we can do better - now THAT, in my mind is the American Way. No tariffs, no preferential contracts - if we can do it better - then by God do it.

Pathfinder
10-10-2004, 10:22 PM
Ok, I'll pitch in in this thread, since I own a few Combloc weapons...

I look at it this was, if and when there is a "invasion force", what will they be using?


If you are shooting the "poodle shooter" AR, you are limited to ammo from sources here, mine are walking in with my ammo in their rifles. Logical no?

Is it patriotic? The way I see it, yes it is. I am saving the 5.56 for you guys with the 15's and 16's if and when the need arises. Wont be a shortage of ammo here. :up:

ScarletPumpernickel
10-11-2004, 05:04 AM
Some of you just don't get it.

There will be no need for our enemies to invade. We are destroying our country from within. At one time, Russia was a world power, they are now a second rate nation. Their economy failed. Bad economy is what keeps other nations from rising to a position of power. Many nations have great potential but they will never rise out of poverty because of a bad economy. We are not only destroying OUR economy by buying foreign, but also building the economies of our enemies.

When our economy is ruined by foreign imports and joblessness, it will be no great feat for the next super-power to take control merely by coming to our aid. All of our military will be useless. This is simple math, friends....just like 2+2=4. I don't know about you, but I don't want to work for a Chinese or German dictator.

The solution is not our government's, it is ours. STOP BUYING FOREIGN. DEMAND AMERICAN. You do this and you will create a demand for American made products. If there is a demand, there will be a supply. And since there is a market, there will be competition. If we have competition, quality will go UP and the price will come DOWN.

It's not going to happen overnite; we didn't get in this shape overnite. Rome wasn't burn't in a day. We have two choices, (1) Win, (2) Lose. There is really no middle ground.

ScarletPumpernickel
10-11-2004, 06:47 AM
Now, let me address the "their ammo will fit my gun" justification for buying these foreign made assault weapon look-alikes: Their ammo will also fit their guns. If any of you in your Rambo-istic dreams are planning to vanquish the "invaders" with their own ammo, don't just take their ammo, take their guns, too. Does that make sense?

Look, this economic war is real. A collapse in our economy will result in rioting and looting and other forms of lawlessness.. Our government will not be able to control it. At this point, an "invasion" by a foreign power is eminent....peacekeepers...probably at the request of our failed leadership.

Don't blame Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, or the Bushes for our present economic situation. WE are the ones who bought the foreign goods.

Popeye
10-11-2004, 03:30 PM
Supply and Demand. Good start.

Now include Price Point in the mix and you are half way there.

Next is Quality.

Availibility and you got it.


If a foreign manufacturer meets all of these they will get Americans' money. If a home grown manufacturer meets all of these they will get the money.

Simple, really.

Don't blame the consumer. Blame the manufacturer. Blame onerous regulations foisted on business by liberals. Blame government. Blame the system.

TallPine
10-11-2004, 04:02 PM
How many American soliders have died and will die from their weapons and ammo. How many today? They sell them all over the world to any one with the money.
Well, every one that I buy is one that won't be used against us :P

Besides, I heard somewhere a while back that the US Govt is buying AKs from Russia or Poland or somebody for $50 a piece to arm the Iraqi police (the good guys on our side, hopefully).

cheekser
10-11-2004, 06:13 PM
it is the natural line of progression for an evolving and technologically advanced society to move from a manufacturing-based economy (anyone remember the industrial revolution?) to an information-based one.

SP: do use drive a vehicle or regularly commute in one that uses foreign-produced oil?

akula
10-11-2004, 07:01 PM
I buy American if and when the US made product stands up with the rest. Country of origin is one of many factors I consider, but quality, value, and capability matters more to me. My car wears a Japanese nameplate and was constructed in Mexico. When I purchased it, no US automaker produced anything similar- the closest vehicles did not have other characteristics I considered mandatory.

Does this mean I am not a patriot? Not hardly. You do your nation no favors if you are willing to reinforce poor products with your purchasing dollars. Such behavior simply tells manufacturers that they are doing a good job and have no need to change. Why should they invest funding in R&D and production if people are plenty willing to buy what they already have because of the flag it wears?

While I stand with many of you on many other topics, on this one I just can't. We are part of a global economy. Where these arguments were once used with vehicles, our automakers improved and we also developed new technologies and products to sell, literally creating a whole new segment to the economy. It will happen again. While our nation always faces challenges, the sky didn't fall 20 years ago, and we are resourceful enough, it won't fall now.

ScarletPumpernickel
10-11-2004, 07:31 PM
Very predictable reactions from those trying to justify their purchases. What it boils down to is: "I want it and I'm gonna have it. To hell with the consequences." A sad state of affairs.

Popeye
10-11-2004, 07:37 PM
Very predictable reactions from those trying to justify their purchases. What it boils down to is: "I want it and I'm gonna have it. To hell with the consequences." A sad state of affairs.

A very predictable reaction from one who has his mind made up and doesn't care to be bothered with the facts of the matter. What it boils down to is: "I'm right and you're wrong. To hell with the consequences." Truly, a sad state of affairs.

akula
10-11-2004, 07:48 PM
Very predictable reactions from those trying to justify their purchases. What it boils down to is: "I want it and I'm gonna have it. To hell with the consequences." A sad state of affairs.

Whatever. I know where I stand. If the S ever does indeed HTF, rest assured I will stand beside the rest of you in fighting for right and freedom, but placing every single purchasing decision right up there with it is being a bit melodramatic, IMO. I love my country, but in these days of multinational megacorporations, trying to trace everything to a flag is only headache-inducing. Somebody will always find fault with what a person does, but I see no need to appease everybody.

Rabbi
10-11-2004, 08:10 PM
Yeah, we sure are a bunch of selfish Anti-American pigs who would love to see an economic and societal collapse. We are SO DAMNED fortunate having you here to guard us against moral error.

I don't know about the rest, but I think you're wonderful and personally hang on your every word.

With the deepest respect, undying devotion and just plain hero-worship,

Rabbi

USP45usp
10-11-2004, 08:11 PM
One of the biggest reasons in the late 80's and 90's with cars/trucks is that the other countries started to make them really good and with good quality, better warranties, etc.. They also cut their throats with their first cars and the American Car industry didn't have anything to worry about. When the other cars started to get alot better and surpassed our quality, there was a huge influx of foreign made cars bought. It took our industry about a decade to just meet the new quality controls.

Yet, I don't think that it's the People who are to blame for this. The government has tied the hands of industry, what they can and can't do, taxes, property tax, business tax and they don't just get reamed by the federal government but the state and county, as well as the city that they are in. Most of American goods are exported to these foreign countries due to they would have to sell them expensive here or they can sell cheaper there but in larger quanities, so they make their money.

Now, I did buy an American 1992 Pontiac Firebird. Back in the early 80's they were called "maybe 10 year cars and then you throw away". I've had mine for 12 years now, so the quality did get better and it doesn't have "as many" as the problems that Firebirds had in the '80's. My truck is an '81 GMC, they still had pride in the workmanship back then before they started to put out junk (which they never really did, GMC did keep some quality control). That truck will be running (without as much money put into it to repair it) then that '92 Firebird ever will (with lots of money put into it). Cars and Trucks (unless you are rich) is the second biggest investment that one will ever make, so they want it to last. Why do you think that Ford came out with "Quality is Job One" ads? Because the American car/truck industry wasn't putting out Quality until they saw the "light". Now I see just as many American made cars/trucks on the road as foreign made.

Now, since this is a gun board, you talk about how bad it is buying a milsup rifle/pistol from our "enemies". Money that really goes to the company that you buy them from, an American company. Now, these companies aren't in the business of just giving away guns. So, that $49.95 Nagant Mosin that you bought, probably paid for the entire 50 they have in stock. So the "enemy" got $50 bucks for 50 guns but now an American Company just got $2500 (just an example, what I mean is that an American Company just made a profit that will be reinvested).

I hate to say it but if the American good will not last as long as the one from another country, it would be kinda stupid to keep on buying that product in the next couple of years when the other one (from the other country) would have lasted. Hey, if I were a rich man with money to burn, I would buy products that weren't as good as others just because they are American made but I'm not.

I don't know, I don't have the answer or any solutions. I buy when I can but I do research now that we have the internet and compare. I will tell you some key words that I look for:

1-800 number (Toll Free)
Warranties (duration)
Customer Service (how satisfied I am with the company or product)
Overall Service

Dell used to outsource customer service for America to India. Once they got bombared with complaints, the US customers get US people for customer service (either that or the Indians that they picked speak just like us).

Microsoft. If another company, foreign or not, creates an OS and software for it that is comparable with MS except for all the security holes, a toll free (which MS does not have) phone number, polite customer service reps, and willing to help instead of saying, "oh, just buy (at $400+) the upgrade", then I would be the first to say that I would bail. Gates is the richest man in America, he can at least afford toll free numbers.

I can understand both sides but I don't think that the problem or the solutions lay with the "lay people" but with the federal government, the state/county/city governments, and the reforms of tort law.

With sKerry and all the libs/dems screaming that they will "tax" the corporations the most and that will make it all right, they aren't living in the real world. All of the money that businesses have to spend, that goes to the customer, we are the ones paying for that EPA fine, we are the ones paying to upgrade to some "hi tech" dodad that government has mandated, we pay for the property/land tax, we pay for the minimum wages that are mandated, we pay for everything. When you buy that American made product, it probably costs $20 to make, advertise, and make it on the market. Yet you end up paying $200 for that same products, because of our governments, lawsuit liability, rules and regulations. As long as other countries can get by without doing so, they will make the same product at $20 and then sell for $50, making a hell of a profit. That $20 product made by an American company and sell it for $200 may make a $10 profit.

I do wish that this subject was just "black and white" with no "grey" inbetween. While we are demanding American made goods at good prices we also have to demand that the governments get off the American's companies asses. We need to level the playing field, maybe make sure that the other companies are under the same restrictions, pay the same taxes, have to abide by OSHA rules, have to pay the American minimum wage, have the same EPA regs, etcc. etcc.. etcc...

And we can't up the tariffs. If we demand that a country pay a high tariff (let's say $500 per container, low end) then they just turn around and demand that we pay $1000 for each container. Since those *******s in DC went with the tariff treaty (which basically screwed us), we would be in violation of the treaty if we didn't pay them. We can't force them to change their tariff amounts unless we just blow the hell outta them and make them part of America but then, that will never happen.

Actually, I do have the answer and the solution... lets go back to the America were were before the governments started to mess with it. We have a Constitution, we have the Bill of Rights, lets go back and restart the experiment and get the damn governments off out backs and kick the damn un out of the US, that would be a pretty good start IMNSHO!

Wayne

Pathfinder
10-11-2004, 08:13 PM
You do your nation no favors if you are willing to reinforce poor products with your purchasing dollars. Such behavior simply tells manufacturers that they are doing a good job and have no need to change. Why should they invest funding in R&D and production if people are plenty willing to buy what they already have because of the flag it wears?


Exactly. I hear this all the time with what brand I work on and support..We still have'nt forgotton Pearl Harbor.

Niether have we. Maybe you have forgotton Hiroshima or Nagasaki, we almost exterminated them with 2 bombs. They have came over here and gave US jobs.(Nissan, who I work for, has provided over 120,000 jobs) not taken them away. Lets take the Ford moniker, hmmmm they are built in Canada? Mexico??? KOREA!?!?!?!?! And hold on to your shorts.... CHINA.. Yes, you read that right.. What about Smith & Wesson? Winchester??? Need I go on?

Popeye
10-11-2004, 08:38 PM
Yeah, we sure are a bunch of selfish Anti-American pigs who would love to see an economic and societal collapse. We are SO DAMNED fortunate having you here to guard us against moral error.

I don't know about the rest, but I think you're wonderful and personally hang on your every word.

With the deepest respect, undying devotion and just plain hero-worship,

Rabbi

Great! I couldn't have said it better if I tried.

NGK
10-11-2004, 10:36 PM
I prefer to buy American in my guns and in anything else that I can, Every time "we" buy something from another country we weaken ourselves, little by little. Buy American!

Fug
10-11-2004, 10:40 PM
Alot of people getting fired up on this issue, so I will sum up my thoughts like this:

As I said I only own american made firearms is how my thinking works, but I will use them to defend to my death your right as an American to buy any damn thing you please based on how your thinking works.

Hell I almost sound like sKerry there, but i reckon ya all kow what I mean ;)

armoredman
10-12-2004, 10:12 AM
Well, everyone is getting irked, so I'll keep my comments brief. Smith and Wesson, owned by several overseas companies at differant times, but made in America. Taurus a Bazilian company, but made in America in Florida. Who gets the money? Mosin Nagant rifles, made 50+ years ago, sold for pennies on the dollar from a cash strapped dying country, resold for 1000% markup in the US. Who gets the money?
Ford cars/trucks, made in Mexico, watch them come up on the trains every day, but Nissan has a plant in the US. Who gets the money?
Look inside your computer, and see how many components are part of the global economy - who gets the money?
The Amrican economy isn't dying due to our trade deficit - it's due to our continually shoveling money out the door to whatever special interest we can find, whether it be local or overseas. Whether my money is being paid to a "performance artist" in San Francisco to paint herself nude with chocolate syrup and broccoli, or given to our invading southern neighbor, Mexico, in the form of non repayable gifts, it's gone for NO GOOD REASON!
And to get back to guns, I will buy the Mossberg plinkster from WalMart when I can...and a Mosin Nagant 91/30. When an American company can give me a finely crafted wood and steel rifle of the same quality for the same price, I will be happy to own it.

Hook
10-12-2004, 10:21 AM
Post Deleted by Hook............Thought better of it.



Hook

budroe
10-12-2004, 07:25 PM
Didn't really mean my statement on Rugers as a knock against anyone. Just the fact that someone thought it was unconstitutional to support Ruger. Some others have expressed the same sentiment against Smith & Wesson due to their agreement with the Clinton govt. I continue to buy both guns, because they are examples of some of the best guns made in the world. If either gun was made in China or Russia, I would still buy it. I'm not interested in the origins of the guns other people buy (unless we're somewhere together covering each other's butt, and the other guy's weapon is a POS). I don't care if its made in China, Russia, Cuba or Massachusetts as long as it goes bang everytime you pull the trigger. I have served our country in Southeast Asia, Central America, Africa and the Middle East. That's my way of supporting American businesses (I guess). I find it somewhat amusing to have my patriotism questioned because I holster a Glock when I'm sent to represent our government overseas (gasp, on a few occasions I've been known to carry an ak-47 also). My glock and I are getting ready to go out together again for the next year, and the fact that someone who obviously has percieved my choice to be un-American has no interest or meaning to me at all (why don't you further demonstrate your patriotism by bringing your American made weapon along and join us). Others can support our country as they see fit. Being fixated on buying American is nice. As long as you are buying from a company selling shares on the stock market, how do you determine you're buying American? I think a lot of people should lighten up a bit and reassess their statements before pointing fingers and calling names. It comes across a bit weak to some of us.

USP45usp
10-12-2004, 10:13 PM
Hey, This is a good thread and we need to ensure that our emotions and our thoughts don't go overboard.

We are just people, people with different thoughts and ideas on what is wrong in America. My main blame is the Government, I do vote, but I am only one person.

We can keep this going but we have to remain on a civil level.

I can understand both sides of the issue. You really want to do one, but we aren't all Heinz-sKerry's who paid less in income tax then the average middle class person, who has outsourced but it's okay for their company, we all don't have alot of money and can only afford what we can get.

I am "living large" at this time. I have money and I am buying American goods, the Bushmaster and the Colt upper. Yes, the Colt upper is a 7.62 and I could just buy an AK clone for about $300.. but I choose to buy the AR varient. And I'm paying it off, none of the normal three months and if it's not paid off we put it back on the rack and then charge you a $150 restocking fee, etc.. I have all the time that I want to pay it off, alot don't have that chance with other gunshops.

So I don't look down on anyone for not buying American. But I can gurantee that when they can (all of us here), we do.

The EBR that I choose, I could buy two AK clones that take "hi-caps". With the money left over I could get $100 worth of 30rd mags... but I didn't. Yet I seem to be placed, in your minds, in the same camp of "traitor" that is going on here. A sane man (or women) would have gotten the two AK clones and the mags, the mags that I had to find for my upper costs double the amount of one AK clone mag... but I wanted to go that route and to get what I did. But I can afford it at the moment. Yet we shouldn't look down on those that do shop at wal-mart (and I do also) for the cheaper goods. When one has a family, and money is tight, you do what you have to do. I'm more then sure that they would only buy American, if they could afford it.

No, it's not us "people" that is destroying America. If you want to see the faces of those that wish to destroy America, look no further then the government. We didn't put resrictions on companies, we didn't tax the companies to the extreme, we didn't force fines or sign into treaties the laws in affect now.

Truthfully, if American's wanted to ensure that we helped America, all this stuff would have been dealt with in 1934... but we ain't got the nerve so we can only whine about it.

My .02 cents.

Wayne

gunblu
10-13-2004, 08:26 AM
I drive a Japanese car, but there were no Japanese working where I bought it, only Americans.

If I buy a third-world item from my local gun shop, there are no third-world people working there, only Americans.

I read recently where the U.S. shoe industry has crumbled in the face of foreign competition, but strangely, there are more people employed and making a living from selling shoes in this country than ever before.

Isolationism is a thing of the past.

The world is shrinking.

Deal with it.

ScarletPumpernickel
10-13-2004, 09:27 AM
Wouldn't America be better off if these goods were both manufactured AND sold by Americans?

Folks, this is an economic fact. If you don't believe me, go to your local bank and ask one of it's directors. What many of you are advocating is exactly what John Kerry espouses.

I keep hearing "it's a world economy". My friends, it has always been a "world economy"...at least for the last 6000 years. The "world" was smaller, but even then each country or nation had it's own economy. If it was nothing but an all encompassing "world economy" there would be little use for a Secretary of Treasury cabinet position. The arguments some are offering just don't hold water.

My apologies to the FTN's.

Popeye
10-13-2004, 10:34 AM
Wouldn't America be better off if these goods were both manufactured AND sold by Americans?

And if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump it's ass every time it landed.

dipodomys
10-13-2004, 04:10 PM
When I was in Korea I bought american ground coffee, imported from Columbia, for $20 a can on the black market. In Panama I couldn't see buying imported bacardi rum for $18 a fifth when I could buy it for $2.89 a half gallon locally. I drive a car with a Japanese name but don't have any idea where it was built or by who. I use Winchester ammo though I know it is produced by a french based company. I have no idea who the owners are. i might even own a piece of it myself. With the interlocking companies today and worldwide investment in corporations we have no way to chase all the ownership. Besides even american owned companies are building things in other countries because of all the legal snarls we put them through here. I'll buy what I want where I can get it for the best price and not give a rip where it was made, by who , or who gets the profits.

Antlurz
10-13-2004, 04:27 PM
China and North Korea are the only two places I really have any trouble with. They are furthering their militaristic goals with our money. Do I have stuff here from China?

Yup. No alternatives available.

Ron

ScarletPumpernickel
10-13-2004, 08:42 PM
http://www.rescueamericanjobs.org/consumers-pledge-buy-american-made-products/

http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/

Ketchupshirt88
10-13-2004, 09:28 PM
post #9 by USP45usp(a little too long to be quoting) spells out the reasons i would buy "from the enemy" (the country is not my enemy, the FORMER governments WERE and the terrorist SOB's are now)

i'll buy what i like and what works.....no condescending extreme nationalist is gonna tell me i cant buy what i want/can afford

thats why we live in AMERICA land of the FREE

USP45usp
10-13-2004, 10:01 PM
I've done some research on the subject.

It's not going to "turn around", we have to adapt to what is going on. We much see the problem, and solve it.

When it comes to outsourcing high tech jobs, maybe we should start to teach our childen the three R's, and homosexual sex is not one of them. Tolerance is not one of them, diversity is not one of them, to tolerate everything is not one of them, the three R's is what is needed.

I hate to say it but we've dumbed down our childen while other countries have made education more availble to theirs.

I want to take this time to state, I hold no hate or dislike for SP. I disagree with him, here and other threads, but he is well respected by me, as is Wildames, we can agree that we can disagree.

But, we are all Americans (the majority) and we have to think about this. The People can only do so much, as in vote, the problem lies with, the ones we vote for.

I've got to get to bed... late night, early morning.

Wayne

armoredman
10-13-2004, 10:29 PM
G'night.

gp59
10-14-2004, 09:20 AM
Good morning
just so i can get my two cent worth in lets get back to the original subject.
i like others try and buy American made when ever possible. but some times that is not possible due to Quality and price of any item. when it comes to guns i do prefer the US made brands, mostly S&W revolvers and autos. so far the only halfbreed type of gun brand that i will endorse are Sig's. the frames are made in Germany and the slide and the rest of the gun is made and assembled in the US. the Sig is the one auto that i truly trust my life with. most of the other brands mentioned are all good guns and function is very good. so buy what makes you feel good, works for you and fits your price range. because no matter what, nobody is going to agree on every thing, except maybe that John sKerry is a dumb ass!


:vote: :mornin: :grrr: :redrum: :cents: :whooho: :cool: :cool:

Pathfinder
10-14-2004, 05:50 PM
All I can say to this is, Welcome to the FFF gunblu. :up:


I drive a Japanese car, but there were no Japanese working where I bought it, only Americans.

If I buy a third-world item from my local gun shop, there are no third-world people working there, only Americans.

I read recently where the U.S. shoe industry has crumbled in the face of foreign competition, but strangely, there are more people employed and making a living from selling shoes in this country than ever before.

Isolationism is a thing of the past.

The world is shrinking.

Deal with it.

ducktapehero
10-16-2004, 06:36 PM
I try to buy American when I can. However, when it comes to something that may be used to defend my family I will buy what I think will work best for me, regardless of who made it. My family comes 1st.

Jaco
10-18-2004, 01:41 AM
I won't mind buying anything for self defense that was made by commies. Because I am most likely to use it on their supporters.

And face it - the Mak, AK 47, and Tokarev WORKS, unlike a lot of their Western cousins.

Marinesg1012
10-18-2004, 03:09 AM
I buy American as much as possible if something isnt American and I cant find an American substitute than I will buy whatever.

I want an AK now that I have fired one, if anyone knows of an American supplier let me know if not than I will buy the Ruskie one.

armoredman
10-18-2004, 02:57 PM
Losta AKs in the US. I think there was an American made one, but all the ones coming in now, like the Romaks, and such, ARE American made, with American recievers, like the other Century products, the CETME, FAL and G3 clones, to get around 922(c).

Redrum
10-19-2004, 10:38 AM
Ok...I stayed away from this one as long as I could...

The problem I have with this thread is someone started it and has not contributed to it since...makes me wonder to what end the post was created........???

Anyway...I have a great number of ComBloc firearms...and I enjoy them each and every time I fire them...At least I know that this one is not going to be shooting at any of us...Now you may say that that is a shallow attitude...but get over it...it mine and I'll defend it. Although I try to "Buy American" as much as I possibley can, when American firearms manufactures start manufacturing anything in the realm of the SKS at current prices...give me a call and I will be right there in line...Until then...you may do as you wish...and that is your right, but don't even think about poo-pooing my buying habits.

Proud owner of...
http://members.cox.net/kjgj13/Weapons/AK47.JPG
http://members.cox.net/kjgj13/Weapons/sks1.jpg

http://members.cox.net/kjgj13/Weapons/cetme.JPG
http://members.cox.net/kjgj13/Weapons/bolt_action.JPG

any many many others.....

[soapbox/off]

armoredman
10-19-2004, 10:48 AM
One of them looks familiar.....

CP40 wants the AK......

ruger22com
10-20-2004, 11:17 AM
[QUOTE=michael t]This question has been on my mind for a long time. Why are Americans so in love with weapons of our enemys I talking AK's SKS MAK,ect. Made by theWarsaw pac countries , Russian , China these people our not our friends and never will be yet we buy their weapons and ammo as fast as we can. How many American soliders have died and will die from their weapons and ammo. How many today? They sell them all over the world to any one with the money.
QUOTE]

50 years ago the EXACT same mindset applied to the japanese.
Now they are our friends and partners.
The same thing started with china back in the days of Nixon, and if we do not continue to make the chinese and russians our trading partners, we will always be at war with them.
Make a country rely on you for sales and technology, and you never have to worry about going to war with them.
U.S. manufacturers also sell weapons world wide, to anybody who will buy them. SO where is the difference? Because the russians make a better weapon?
Maybe if our soldiers were not stationed all over the world, we would not have to worry about them dying on foriegn soil.

Marinesg1012
10-20-2004, 11:21 AM
So uhh..... Red When are we going to the range??

Redrum
10-20-2004, 04:51 PM
So uhh..... Red When are we going to the range??
Soon as you get your butt here!!! Invite is always open!!:up::up::up:

michael t
10-20-2004, 09:29 PM
I have enjoyed reading all of the above. You all make good points .In the end no one is going to change there minds, myself included. So I guess there is no real answer .
I don't belive Russia has changed, to many old guard still around and China will force us into a war only question is over what and how long till this comes to past.

Jmurman
10-25-2004, 05:25 PM
I smoke Cuban cigars....does that count? :D Just kidding.

I think it would be hard for some people on severe budgets to be able to afford a quality semi auto battle rifle as opposed to an inexpensive quality import.

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