[akula]

I have a question that I would appreciate as many responses as possible on (this is for a class project, and responses from Christians and non-Christians are quite welcome).

Are there (or should there be) any restrictions on the service of women in the church?
For Christians, what would be your Biblical (or other) basis?
For non-Christians, what would you expect (or like) to see in a Christian community on this issue (and why)?

Please, no flamewars- I actively solicit your thought out and reasoned opinions on this one. Thanks in advance.

[Redrum]

Having been raised Roman Catholic and then in later years been received into the Episcopal Church, I see the differences between the two. I don't have a problem with women in active roles in the church. The E.Church ordaines women and I have met quite a few that are very capable. To me there was no difference. I have no Biblical references to base that one (that is another story best left for another thread). I base it on my heart and confort zone.

Good luck on the paper...Let us know how it turned out...

[akula]

Red, actually, this is a very short paper on people's reactions to a particular issue. I would very much like to hear your reasoning, and as such, it would be germane to the issue (and the paper, and the class...). One of the things we have discussed is how things such as tradition, experience, and reason can often greatly affect how we view what the Bible says on various topics. So please, feel free to explain.

[Williamlayton]

The Apostles were all men. There is scriptual evidence of the Gifts being given to ALL, men and women and evidence of women being teachers.
It depends more on the culture than the scripture and more than culture, it is the gift of God, to deny the gifts given to women.
Blessings

[She Who Must Be Obeyed]

Saint Paul stated that women should not have a leadership role in the church. This may offend some but really if you think about it, it's very logical. Somone has to be the leader, committees don't work very well. The way that God set it up men are the head, women are the heart. Both are indispensible to the smooth function of the family but their jobs are different. We are designed to fufill our different functions. Women are more nurturing by nature and men are more take charge. This is not a bad thing, it just is.

[Redrum]

Red, actually, this is a very short paper on people's reactions to a particular issue. I would very much like to hear your reasoning, and as such, it would be germane to the issue (and the paper, and the class...). One of the things we have discussed is how things such as tradition, experience, and reason can often greatly affect how we view what the Bible says on various topics. So please, feel free to explain.
Given certain reasonable requirements for a job, anyone that can fullfill said requirements should be allowed to perform that job. There are no requirements that I am aware of that would preclude women from holding leadership positions in the church other than bias.

Now...the other part of this that some people will rely on (and they have every right to their opinion, as do I) is that they will quote scripture. My problem is that I cannot in all good conscience put all my trust in a book that has been written by man and rewritten so many times that no one can vouch for it's integrity. For those that wish to, that is their right and I do not fault them for it, nor will I judge them. Man has a propensity to embellish on anothers words. For me to take the Bible, as written, as the absolute truth, is not logical. Translating modern languages from one to another creates many misconceptions and mistruths...Now imagine doing it with long dead languages that no one has first hand knowledge of. If I'm wrong, then I will have some explaining to do later...but I am sure that He will understand....

[Sir Knight]

Here's a communication that our local Bishop will be putting out this week-end on this very subject ... May 8, 2005

My dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

In the living of our Catholic faith, each and every one of us is called to share in the mission of Christ and His promise of salvation. United and equal in our humanity, each of us has also been given by our Creator individual talents and gifts, which help us carry on Christ's mission and bring to completion God's plan of uniting all things in Him.

This richness of diversity in the Church requires that we listen, understand and collaborate as we go about this work. In a 1988 apostolic letter on the dignity and vocation of women, Mulieris dignitatem, Pope John Paul II reminded us that both men and women share "a common responsibility for the destiny of humanity." God's plan for creation calls for unity and collaboration between men and women. The inherent differences in the sexes are not the source of division, but are complementary and designed for mutual support.

In 2003, in the spirit of Mulieris dignitatem and after prayerful reflection, I established the Commission for Women for the Diocese of Allentown as an advisory board offering women's perspectives on issues of concern to the Church. The formation of the Commission followed the recommendation of a diocesan task force, which investigated the need for such a commission. At my invitation, the Commission for Women held its inaugural meeting on June 23,2004. The Commission is comprised of fifteen Catholic laywomen representing various walks of life, age groups, ethnic backgrounds and geographic areas of the Diocese.

That Commission is now actively engaged in developing effective outreach programs to communicate its existence and its mission to all members of the Diocese of Allentown. In addition, the Commission will identify short- and long-term goals, which will be supportive to my ministry as Bishop of our Diocese.

I look forward to working with all the members of the Commission and to give witness to the fruit of their labors. Such a collaborative working relationship will serve as a constant reminder to me that it is humanity - male and female together - which is the visible expression of God's image. Each needs the other, and one without the other cannot truly be the complete image of the Creator.

This concept was stated quite clearly by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger - now our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI - a little less than a year ago in a letter of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith "On the Collaboration of Men and Women in the Church and in the World." He wrote that, from the moment of their creation, men and women are distinct and will be so for all eternity. But as they are drawn fully into their union with Christ, "they no longer see their difference as a source of discord to be overcome by denial or eradication, but rather as the possibility for collaboration, to be cultivated with mutual respect for their difference." That vision of our unity in Christ is what our own diocesan Commission for Women is formed to foster and, in doing so, to open us to greater depth in our living out of the mission of Christ in which we all share.

In closing, as we look toward the Second Synod of Allentown, I ask your prayers for all the apostolic endeavors within our Diocese and, in particular, the work of our recently-established Commission for Women.

Most Reverend Edward P. Cullen, D.D.
+ Bishop of Allentown, PA.

[Antlurz]

I don't see it as an earth shaking deal one way or the other, however from my standpoint, I guess it is how you are brought up. Until the past few years, ( realize MY definition of the last few years might encompass most of some of our members lives :D) it was never an issue and I guess I just figured "that's the way it is" and let it go at that. I will admit feeling some discomfort listening to a woman on the pulpit, but I guess that is the result of a lifetime of being exposed to males on the pulpit.

I DO feel that if one professes to be of a certain denomination, and that denomination is against it, and you are for it, that would mean that maybe you have picked the wrong denomination to be part of......

Ron

[Marinesg1012]

I dont see why woman couldn't be in the higher up of the church, but I dont really have a horse in the race.

[akula]

Good so far, keep the responses coming...

Thanks for the help.

[Vibe]

In the ORIGINAL church, with Jesus as it's head. Seems Mary Magdalene played a very large part, even a leadership role in certain aspects. She was often more involved than even some of the Apostles. What kept her from being listed as an Apostle? Probably only the customs of the day (then), her possible lack of literary skills (again due to the customs of the day). But most likely due to the customs and prejudices of the ensuing translators.

[Redrum]

I DO feel that if one professes to be of a certain denomination, and that denomination is against it, and you are for it, that would mean that maybe you have picked the wrong denomination to be part of......

Ron
Makes sense to me....

[Williamlayton]

Christ Jesus kept her from being called as an Apostle. He chose them, the apostles, she was not chosen.
The other arguement is from silence and that is an illogical argument.
Blessings

[NavyChief]

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1 Tim 2:12 (KJV)There are other references - I'll try to get them together...

[Williamlayton]

The gifts of the spirit include preaching, teaching and evangelism and are given to all as the spirit wills.
Blessings

[LeiraHoward]

Here's my response, with plenty of scripture. All taken from the KJV, just cause that's what I've got at the moment. :) I'm sure the NASB or any other version will be similar:

There were women in the early church who were believers:

Acts 5:14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Acts 17:34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

Acts 16:14-15 14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. 15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

There were women in the early church who were active in service:

Acts 9:36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.

Philippians 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.


There were women in the early church who would pray with the men:

Acts 1:13-14 13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Acts 12:12-13 12 And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying. 13 And as Peter knocked at the door of the gate, a damsel came to hearken, named Rhoda.

Women were involved in teaching their children Biblical truth:

Acts 16:1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:

II Timothy 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

[Timothy's mother and grandmother helped teach him, but I can't find the verses at the moment that make that more clear, sorry...]

Women were also involved in teaching younger women:

Titus 2:3-5 3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Men and women were equal in marriage:

I Corinthians 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.


But, the male was the head of the household, the leadership position:

I Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

I Peter 3:1,7
1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

And leaders of the church were to be men:

Titus 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

II Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

II Timothy 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Women were not to speak in church:

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Women were not to teach the men:

I Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


So, in summary: Women as Pastors, deacons, teachers of men (in spiritual matters) is not Biblical. Women as teachers of children, teachers of other women, involved in other ministries such as hospitality, those things are Biblical.

[NavyChief]

Uhmm, yeah. What she said. :agreed: Leira - you actually did a much better job of backing up your claims than I would have done, had I not gotten wrapped around several other axles and completely forgotten about this thread. Well done.

[Nes]

JMO. I think women can do anything they set their minds to. In Church or anywhere else. I think they have proven that and are proving it every day. Irac comes to mind.

Nes

[She Who Must Be Obeyed]

No-one questions our ability, just our authorization. Just because you can do something doesn't always mean that you should Nes.

[KMDO]

Leira, Great Job.:)

NASB

Gen.
3:16To the woman He said,
"I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you."

[LeiraHoward]

Uhmm, yeah. What she said. :agreed: Leira - you actually did a much better job of backing up your claims than I would have done, had I not gotten wrapped around several other axles and completely forgotten about this thread. Well done. Leira, Great Job.:) Thank you both. :)

No-one questions our ability, just our authorization. Just because you can do something doesn't always mean that you should Nes.:exactly:

[Antlurz]

I also think you did a great job there, Leira.

Ron

[LeiraHoward]

I also think you did a great job there, Leira.

Ron *blushes* :blush:
Thanks.... :)

[WV-Preacher]

Well there is nothing really to add to LeiraHoward's post to the subject.

A little off topic, but I believe worth mentioning. Yes the Scriptures tell us that the man is to be the head of the house, it also tells us how to do it. We are not to let this authority go to our head and "Lord" over the wife in the process.

We are told to love our wives the same way that Christ loved the Church(Eph 5:25). Christ loved the Church so much he died for it. And husbands are to love the wives as much as themselves. While I see no documentation for it, I believe there will be a punishment for not following these rules.

Just like a minister will be held to a higher standard(James 3:1), the husband should have respect for this leadership and use it wisely.