[Jbar4Ranch]

This may be a duplicate thread, but I don't see the first one. I got a "Website not responding" message the first time, didn't see a new thread, and tried to repost, but then got a message that I had already posted this thread, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, I still don't see it, so I'll change the title and try it again.
________________________________________

First off was a thorough examination of the old gal to make sure she'd hold together. There are two holes in the frame, one on each side, that must either be alignment holes for the stamping press, or jig holes for assembly. Using a jeweler's loupe and a "grain of rice" light bulb inserted through one of the holes and hooked to a D cell battery, I could see the sear surfaces quite plainly and they looked to be in excellent condition, as did the main spring and control rod. The reprint blueprints I have spec the sear and trigger to be C.R.L. (Cold Rolled Steel), and case hardened. There didn't appear to be any defects in the bore, and although I didn't mic or slug the barrel, a 230 grain FMJ bullet could be pushed through with hand pressure only. It was a tight fit, and took some effort, but there was no need to pound it through with anything. A week ago I loaded up some rounds consisting of a standard garden variety 200 grain cast SWC sized to .452" over 3.5 grains of IMR Trail Boss and primed with a... ? Yep, a ? There's no reason that I would have used anything but a standard pistol primer, but what I wrote on the box was CCI-200, which is a large rifle primer. Hmmmm. They don't appear to be high, so I think I just made a typo in my notes, but maybe not, more on that later on.
First I "sighted in". (OK, it's a staged shot, play along)
http://pic13.picturetrail.com/VOL470/2393268/4720102/122597659.jpg

Next, I scouted out the hamlet and buddied up to one of the local Nazi occupiers, one Herr Rolf. A nice kid really, too bad he got caught up in this mess.
http://pic13.picturetrail.com/VOL470/2393268/4720102/122597674.jpg

Uh oh... well, Herr Rolf, as long as I missed all five times, can't we still be friends?
http://pic13.picturetrail.com/VOL470/2393268/4720102/122597686.jpg
The distance was twenty feet, and had I taken a couple of practice shots in the basement of our resistance fighter's ghetto apartment before I went out on the street to meet up with Herr Rolf, I could easily have placed one right in his ear from my hiding spot behind the garbage can. The five shot group measures about 1¾", center to center, and is slightly to the left and about a foot high. The bullets showed no signs of tumbling at this range. Three of the five rounds didn't go bang the first time... CCI primers are notorious for being hard, and it's also possible that I mistakenly used rifle primers. (Maybe when yer hunting Nazis, you just load whatcha got!)

Although it's a smooth bore, hence no torque, all five shots resulted in the cocking block rebounding on recoil, which was expected, but it also turned to the right as shown. A common complaint among those that have shot these things is that the web of your hand gets pinched between the cocking block and the frame on recoil, which usually draws blood. Learning from other's mistakes, I held a little lower on the grip to avoid this.
http://pic13.picturetrail.com/VOL470/2393268/4720102/122597700.jpg

When the rounds did go off, the firing pin left an impressive dent in the primer, even perforating one. This could just as well be due to the low pressure load not expanding and gripping the chamber and allowing the case to be forced back onto it too. The three that didn't go bang the first time around did not have much of a dent in them the first time. All five empties fell out easily with the push of a dowel.
http://pic13.picturetrail.com/VOL470/2393268/4720102/122597715.jpg
http://pic13.picturetrail.com/VOL470/2393268/4720102/122597728.jpg

If this specimen is any indication of Liberators as a whole, it would have been a very effective pistol for its intended purpose.

[BrockthePaine]

Cool! Sounds like a good backup CCW gun :lool: (note sarcasm)

BCP

[NT]

What was the recoil like? It's a .45, yes? Must have been something in a gun that small.

Apparently the reason your group was so off is because you're shooting it pretty much at its maximum distance.

"Due to the unrifled barrel, maximum effective range was only about 25 feet (less than 8 metres). After that, the oblong .45 caliber bullet (designed for a rifled barrel) would begin to tumble out of control."

http://www.forensico.com/For-List_of_Firearms_HK_-_L-/Liberator_Pistol.html

It was really designed as an extreme close-range weapon, (almost within touching distance) and just as means to get Herr Rolf's weapons.

I'll give you a great price if Rofl's P.08 is in nice condition and you can pretty much name your own price on his Schmeisser. Heck, these days collectors are going to get excited just over Rofl's helmet ;)

[weaverrick]

These things were an engineering marvel. You're the first person I've heard tell of actually firing one. Thanks for a neat report!! You didn't mention recoil but it has to be quite sharp. The liberator I handled didn't weigh much. An old cynical gunsmith friend of mine always insisted that the liberator was to be used to relieve an ememy soldier of his better weapon. Sounds like it could be quite effective for it's real purpose. Survival!

[Jbar4Ranch]

With standard ball ammo, recoil would undoubtably be *unpleasant*. With the lighter 200 grain bullet and my 3.5 grain mouse phart Trail Boss loads, it was just fine. IMR recommends a max load of 5.5 grains of Trail Boss with a 200 grain bullet, but I couldn't find a starting load, so did a little extrapolation to come up with 3.5 grains. But then again, it was only made to shoot once under field conditions. It was shipped with ten rounds so it could be shot a few times to learn its characteristics, then once when it counted. It was most certainly a one shot proposition at that point, either you killed Rolf and took his weapon(s), or he killed you.

[weaverrick]

Where did you manage to find one in good enough condition to shoot? I've always been told that original liberators are probably not to be trusted due to age and fatique in the old somewhat fragile design. BTW I love the 42 headstamp on some of your cases!

[shoey]

Very cool, indeed!

[7.62mmFMJ]

:goodpost: Always enjoyable. That is definitely better than a sharp stick. I am surprised by the tight group with a smooth bore :eek:

[ducktapehero]

Those are neat pistols.

[Jim V]

The pistol was manufactured by GM's Inland Guide Lamp division. While there is some debate on who came up with the idea of the gun (the Army or the OSS) they were produced at a rate of one every 3 - 5 seconds. Not that it took that little amount of time to produce the entire gun but one was falling off the end of the convayer belt at that rate. Inland Guide Lamp had little experience in building guns but did have a ton of experience of making things from stampings and weldments. There were three different models (as it were) the first not having a guide on the breech block/striker like shown in the photos posted in this thread. The second model had the breech block/striker that was much smaller than the third model - the one in the photos is one of the third type. Of course I am not counting the prototypes in 9m/m or the two shot .45 version.

The pistols were packaged with 10 rounds of .45 ammo and a pictograph (cartoon) instruction sheet in a Kraft cardboard box which was then wrapped in oiled paper. The pistols cost the US about $2.50 out the door.

The original intent was to air drop them into France ffor sue by the resistance but the resisted using them since the British was supplying STEN guns that shot real fast. (Compaired to the FP-45 that is)

Most of the pistols destined for Europe were dumped into the North Atlantic. Some made their way in to the Pacific Theater of Operations but their "combat" record is not known, at least by me.

I have one, with the floor plate that covered the end of the grip and held the spare ammo in place. Most of the pistols that made it back to the US are missing that part, it was just steel flat stock, most likely something like 1018 or 1020 steel, that was not heat treated and they fell out once the catch wore out or broke off.


It has the "honor" of being the only pistol that was made faster than it could be loaded and fired. It has another honor that does mean something, I think, from concept to the final production pistol took 6 months. Try getting a design agreed on in 6 months today. For anything.

[Jbar4Ranch]

Correct, there were at least six variations (not counting floor plate variations), but only three modifications were made during production, and the other three were prototypes. One was a two shot version with a sliding breech block, one had an ejector lever mounted on the spanner, and the third was chambered in 9mm. It appears that a handful of the 9mm versions were actually manufactured.

For the floor plate, the specs called for C.R.S. (Cold Rolled Steel), half hard 1010. Mine differs slightly from the reprint spec sheets I have, but I've seen pics of others identical to it, so I assume it was a design change somewhere early on when the third mod changes went into effect. There is no catch to hold it in place, it's just a friction fit in the folded flanges at the bottom of the grip. The spec'd version had a small tab sticking out from one end of the plate at a slight angle to pull it off with, but nothing to keep it from sliding right on out the other way. The tab on mine is slightly longer, and has two bends in it to fit the contour of the finger grip at the bottom front of the grip. It also has an eighth inch hole punched in it with the material folded out at a 90° angle so you have something to push on to remove the plate.

[matthewdanger]

Great report. Jbar for president!

I am surprised to see what look like pretty decent sights. In fact those sights look more thought out than half the the after-thought sights on handguns today!

[si6]

Jbar

That was a awesome range report:up:
Congrats on yout lil peice of history.

[Marinesg1012]

:up: :up:

[DeaconKC]

Thanks for a great report on a piece of fascinating history!

[sharps_74]

Wow, what a neat old weapon.

[rinavy]

I've only seen two, one at West Point Museum and one at Aberdeen Proving Grounds Museum. The "cartoon" directions were very interesting too! The "Gun to get a gun" is a great and unique piece of history, thanks for sharing!