[BrockthePaine]

It's a really nice day outside and you decide to go for a walk in the park with your dog (or SO). As you're walking past the playground, you spot a man walking up to the kids playing on the merry-go-round. He stumbles a bit and looks a little blurry, like he's drunk or stoned, and he's carrying what looks like a milk jug. When he gets up to the children on the merry-go-round, he takes the cap off the jug and splashes it on a child, who immediately begins screaming and thrashing around on the ground. Since you're downwind, you immediately smell something, maybe clorine? The man turns around and starts slowly stumbling towards you, shouting "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry." The jug is still open, and the guy's about fifteen feet away and closing at about three feet per second. What do you do?

[Popeye]

Damn!! You live in a rough neighborhood. I think I'd move. :D

[Marinesg1012]

Definitly can draw on him. After that you have to stop the threat if the threat continues to advance.

[Pathfinder]

Depends on if you are carrying or not..

If so, empty mag into chest area, repeat 2 to 3 times as needed.

If not, stay out of throwing distance, and alert as many as possible.

[7.62mmFMJ]

Slide-lock scenario :D

[swampadder]

Sense all he has is a jug of liquid,and it is not a life or death situation. I can not legally draw down on him without getting my a$$ in a sling in Arkansas. So I would be forced to do my best to drive my fist through his head. After he is on the ground see how many ribs I could break with my boot. Next 911 for the kid, and scope out the area for a water source to use for first aid; wash off acid from said kid and myself, if any. If the J/A tries to get up go and break more ribs.

[Hook]

Since you don't know what's in the jug, would you use lethal force?

I'd shoot the jug and administer a "stay-where-you-are" kick to the side of his knee, then call 911 and attend to the youngster. (Yes, I can hit a jug at 15')


Hook

[rotty]

throw a rock at em!

[NT]

the guy's about fifteen feet away and closing at about three feet per second. What do you do? That's definitely under the "21 foot rule" discussed here:
http://www.policeone.com/writers/columnists/ForceScience/articles/113907/legal/articles/121330/

I get the feeling Brock designed that as part of the scenario, on purpose.

At the stated attacker's speed, you've got less than four seconds, then, to draw from concealment before he's on top of you with that thing.

...because when he's at about a yard a way, he can effectively splash you.

It's worth remembering that a crazy who just flung acid onto a child is going to do the same thing when a person tries kicking or punching them.

[Joshua M. Smith]

Run! Make him get busy chasing me around and stay off the kids. SO would be on the cell getting the cops out there.

This guy doesn't have to be drunk or stoned. He could just be mentally retarded.

Josh <><

[Pathfinder]

Since you don't know what's in the jug, would you use lethal force? Hook

Yes, because I personally wouldn't be at the park without MY kids....

My first instict would be to protect mine and get to the others for first aid..

I will take a jury trial.

[BrockthePaine]

That's definitely under the "21 foot rule" discussed here:
http://www.policeone.com/writers/columnists/ForceScience/articles/113907/legal/articles/121330/

I get the feeling Brock designed that as part of the scenario, on purpose.

At the stated attacker's speed, you've got less than four seconds, then, to draw from concealment before he's on top of you with that thing.

...because when he's at about a yard a way, he can effectively splash you.

It's worth remembering that a crazy who just flung acid onto a child is going to do the same thing when a person tries kicking or punching them.

You give me far too much credit; I was not aware of this 21/30 foot rule. What I was attempting to do was give people time to draw and engage, or draw and back away depending upon their choice, while still putting them in close proximity/red zone to the threat. Partly, I wanted to see if people thought a jug of possibly acid warranted lethal force.

I would be much more hesitant to shoot this guy since he has shown no other weapon than a jug of acid. Acid can certainly hurt me, but it's a lot less likely to kill me than, say, a knife. Furthermore, I should remind people that the acid-thrower is standing between you and a playground/park of children or parents.

[Hook]

Just a note: How does anyone know it's ACID?
If it's just some harmless stinky water, and you kill him, you're in deep dodo.


Hook

[Huntindoc]

I doesn't really matter whether it is acid or not. It is what a reasonable person would percive it was. With a strong odor, and a child obviously in pain and the perpetrator closing I would feel in danger of bodily harm. I would draw and shoot to stop if he did not drop the jug immediatly and run or hit the ground himself.

[Joshua M. Smith]

Guys,

Not an attack, but what is wrong with my solution? I don't feel right shooting in a place crowded with kids, and even if I dropped to one knee to make the misses (and there will be misses in a defensive situation) fly at a safe angle, the guy could still just be mentally retarded. If he's stumbling I don't see a problem with playing "keep away" until the police get there. I think shooting in this scenario would be a big problem in court -- and Indiana has some very lenient SD laws, to wit: if you shoot in self-defense, you can't even be arrested anymore (it reads "legal jeopardy").

Josh <><

[Popeye]

Good points.

[NavyChief]

Run! Make him get busy chasing me around and stay off the kids. SO would be on the cell getting the cops out there.

This guy doesn't have to be drunk or stoned. He could just be mentally retarded.

Josh <><I do like this solution the best. If it works.

[Huntindoc]

Key-- If it works.

I don't want to shoot anybody but what do you do if when you start running he turns around and heads back to the kids? Now you have increased the distance and your chances of missing. I'm sorry, but I am assumeing that if I am at the park my kids are there. I will take no chances of them being hurt by this guy. I know what pool acid can do and it is readily available. Not going to happen. I will stop this guy if I have to close the distance myself to put my gun to his head to insure I don't miss.

I am not so afraid of misses as I am overpenetration. That is why I choose the rounds that I do. I would most worry about pelvis shot missing the pelvis and going through the abdomen.

[NavyChief]

Key-- If it works.OK, perhaps I should have qualified that a little better. I'm not sure what Josh had in mind with the word "run" but in my mind it was more of a back-pedal to try and draw him off. I'm gonna lead, but I'll let him set the speed. I'm sorry, but in my little pea-brain there just isn't enough information here for me to consider going to deadly force. Why is the child crying? Dunno. Could just be scared, not injured - I've heard little ones put up a fearsome wail for no apparent reason. He's muttering "I'm sorry..." over and over. Why? Nope. Ain't gonna shoot. If he turns back toward the kids I will probably tackle him and separate him from his jug. Yes, I run the risk of getting splashed with our mystery liquid. Oh well. Life's tough all over...

[Huntindoc]

MK I hear ya. I am just fiercely protective of children. Especially my own. I was going with the scenerio as written. In actual fact if someone comes into the playground towards the kids without appearing to be with some of the other children I usually will casually position myself between them and the children. Either to change benchs because the sun was in my eyes, or I want more sun or to talk to one of my children etc, etc. Just want to get a feel for the person. I would not necessarily block they're way but if things don't look right then I will stop them to ask their business there. They can tell me to buzz off if they want but at that point I would gather my children and leave. As I wrote in my first response I would draw and shoot if there was no immediate compliance. If he dropped the jug and ran or started the Don't shoot me!, Don't shoot me! I would not if he no longer appeared a threat. As soon as I drew I would start flanking him to try to position myself between my kids and him. Also I am assumeing maybe incorrectly that he appeared to have splashed the child on purpose.

[Joshua M. Smith]

Yes, I did mean backpedal, dodge, weave, do a dance, whatnot. My fiance cannot run as fast as I can. Be ready to draw, but keep it in your holster until/unless it looks to be necessary.

IF you shoot, you'd have to drop to one knee to get a "totally safe" angle and you'd lose all your movement.

People shot generally fall forward or to the side, or crumple, but generally don't fall backwards. I don't want a guy with a bucket of acid falling on or even towards me.

I know what pool acid can do and it is readily available. Not going to happen.

I'm trained as an auto tech and did that for a number of years. I'm intimitely familiar with the effects of all sorts of acids and cleaners.

All I'm saying is evaluate your options and the threat. The gun does not always have to be the first response. The few times it must be the first response it will automatically jump into your hand and the sights will automatically align -- least they have for me -- and that's how you'll know.

Josh <><

[NavyChief]

Keep in mind my response (and Josh's) is not the only possible way to deal with it. It's just what I feel would be right for me. It's been some time since I had to worry about little ones at the park, so my viewpoint may be different than others'.

[Marinesg1012]

There are no right or wrongs, it is just an excersise to get your mind thinking into different ways so you may act a certain way when it happens.

[BrockthePaine]

There are no right or wrongs, it is just an excersise to get your mind thinking into different ways so you may act a certain way when it happens.
Exactly. Part of the reason I invented this exercise was to get people to think about which circumstances they would not just automatically drop the threat. He's moving away from everyone but you, his weapon is a jug of unknown liquid, and he's not all there.

While the scenario was intended for him to be a BG, I made it possible that it might be a drunk or handicapped guardian dumping water on his own kid. Not saying it makes any sense, but when does life make any sense? Sometimes the weird happens.

[Adolf H. Bubba]

Pepper Spray him. if possible. If not, shoot and then get medical aid for both him and the child.

[NavyChief]

IF you shoot, you'd have to drop to one knee to get a "totally safe" angle and you'd lose all your movement.
Josh -
If you need to drop to one knee for a good shot, you need to practice more. Not being critical, just an observation.

[BrockthePaine]

I suspect what Josh is thinking is not the matter of aim, but of angle. Remember, directly behind this individual is a playground still full of children. Shooting "up" would mean that a miss or round penetrating through said individual is less in line with a child. That's just my read on it here?

[NavyChief]

Ahhh... Yeah, you could be right. I'll go with a (qualified) "never mind" then...

[ruger22com]

I'd draw..issue a warning then try and shoot the jug (assuming no little kids are behind him...if so move to adjust fire).....but if he starts running at me...he is toast.