[BigBlue]

I just received my C+R license application in the mail yesterday. A few questions popped into my head regarding purchases and sales. Could someone define BATFE's idea of collection improvement and the sale of guns towards that end. I often see C+R qualified guns selling three for something, can you buy three, keep the best of the lot and then sell the remaining two? Would you be allowed to profit on any sale? Can you sell one to fund the purchase of another?
I'm a bit excited at the prospect of easier and cheaper purchases, heck I'm already compiling a list!
I sure appreciate your help with this.
Thanks,
Don

[Saunders]

There is really no hard and fast rule and making a profit is ok as long as you are not sliding into being in business as a dealer.

I would be a bit concerned with buying a number of pieces with the intent at the time of selling them. Plenty of folks do this and feel comfortable they are within C&R rules if they can show they actually plowed the proceeds back into their collection via cash or trade.

Obviously, the more transactions you have, especially dispositions, the more you could come up on a radar screen and appear to be in business rather than being a collector.

I think if you have records to show a growing collection in number or if the number is going down or stable but has improved in the quality of the pieces, you are in good shape.

When you renew your license, there is a question on the renewal
form asking you to state how many pieces you acquired during the license period and how many you disposed of during the license period. I think that tells you a bit how ATFE might evaluate the prospects of an audit.

[BigBlue]

Saunders,
Thanks you very much for helping with this.
Don

[akula]

I think Saunders is on the nail here.

While I haven't tried the "buy 3, keep the best," the only time I might is if I were concerned that it was very likely that I wouldn't end up with a good one. Since the guns under such deals are usually in plentiful supply, you'd be hard pressed to sell them for any more than you paid anyway- paying for a hand pick charge might be a better idea anyway.

[BigBlue]

akula,
Have you paid the extra for hand picked? Is it usually worth it? Or is it hard to tell?
Don

[Popeye]

Hand picked means the best unit of the first five or ten units pulled. Sometimes its worth the money, sometimes its not.

[dipodomys]

I've paid for handpicked one time, and wished I hadn't. If you handpick one of a dozen dogs, you still get a dog. I think it has a lot to do with who is handpicking and for what. Some collect and matching numbers are more important than a pristine bore, while others are shooters and the bore is all important. Some people buy for wall hangers and they want overall good looks, where the amount of finish wear may be the deciding factor, or the number of dings in the wood. I've seen some really good looking parts guns in which nothing matched, and I'm not sure I'd feel safe actually touching off a round in them.

[Saunders]

Hand pick is a tough call, as dipodomys expressed. I often do it though. It is a subjective judgment of the stock picker but can help when you have a lot of confidence in the overall quality of the dealer you are buying from.

An extra fee for something specific, like a certain factory or year is worth it if that is what you want for a collection.

[akula]

akula,
Have you paid the extra for hand picked? Is it usually worth it? Or is it hard to tell?
Don

I did once, for my K31, where I also paid extra for a walnut stock and the accessories (sling, muzzle cap). I probably got a slightly nicer one that way, but I doubt it was the difference between a rack grade and a one in very good condition.

With most guns in plentiful supply, you are given the choice of condition (like with the Yugo 59/66), and nicer ones cost more. For those, I wouldn't bother handpicking them. For one that has the supply running out and it's pretty much a "take what you get" thing, I might well go for a handpick.

Still though, keep in mind that if you buy 3 and resell 2, you will not likely recoup all your cost in those two rifles. I don't see a need to buy a rifle from a private seller for the same amount I'd pay for that same rifle from a dealer I have used before (and therefore, I know the quality of their items). That may just be me, but I doubt somebody else would give you retail price AND reimburse you for the shipping (not from you to him, but from your dealer to you- a cost that still needs to be considered).

[BigBlue]

I guess it would make sense to pay the extra for a specific year or manufacturer, but not for the best of an already rated group.
I would also agree that buying three and selling two would probably only work if they were held long enough to increase their appeal, either through a change in price or availablity.
It does seem that while the Yugo SKS rifles are drying up, at least matching numbered, non-electric penciled rifles are, a really great looking batch of K31's are now available. That wasn't the case a few short years ago when I was looking for one. The Mosin-Nagant rifles have been available for some time and seem to continue in their availability. They do seem to be generally in better shape though. German K98 Mausers are definitely on the rise in price, while some really nice Yugo 24/47's in like new condition are around. Decent Enfield's are definitely more available than just a few years ago.
As you can tell, I'm already making a list!;)

Thanks for all the great advise guys.
Don

[dipodomys]

Don, your comments on general condition of the rifles available scare me. I think a lot of importers or/and dealers are doing a lot of cleaning and refinishing, as well as building parts rifles, that are entering the trade. A lot of collectors want only original rifles in original condition. I've seen an awful lot of rifles out there that have been restocked, had stocks refinished, have mismatched serial numbers and even rifles with parts manufactured in different countries. Some of it is legitimate. Some of these rifles were built by several countries over a long period of time and used by many countries. I've never seen a Mosin Nagent action manufactured by Finland, and doubt that they exist, but own a few Finnish M/Ns and have seen many more and with the use of the M/Ns by many central European countries and manufacture of same scattered across Europe It's surprising that all the Finnish rifles I've seen had Russian made actions. Then why do I see Russian made M-44s wearing Chinese barrels or Hungarian buttplates in Polish stocks? For shooters it doesn't matter, but to collectors it can be a pain. Do the dealers really know (or care) what they are selling. Of course that leaves a possibility of getting a really great deal on a collectors item that the dealer doesn't recognize the value of, which makes it easy for a dealer that knows what you're looking for to stiff you with something that looks like but isn't.

[BigBlue]

I have to admit that I've never heard of a Finnish made Mosin-Nagant. I have heard that they had refitted or remanufactured some that were captured from the Soviets and in general they were better guns when the Finns got done with them. As for mis-matched parts, buyer beware is the key. The best way I now of doing that is to be wary about a purchase and to educate yourself on the weapon you want before even concidering it. Then get a lot of questions answered from the dealer before you buy.
I agree on the lack of professionality that some dealers and distributors display. Let's face it those kind of dealers aren't collectors and are just in it for the bucks. A lot like buying a purebred dog, some breeders just don't care, while others are in it for their love of the breed and are real sticklers. That's not to say that all dealers can't be trusted, there are some good ones.
Don

[ruger22com]

If I was you, I would not even consider the "buy 3..keep the best and sell the others for a profit to enhance my collection" idea.

The BATF would not consider that appropriate use, and you would be looking (at the new laws that are getting passed) at an easy $5,000 fine, and losing your collection.
The batf agents around here (I have a class 01 FFL and have a couple agents who are friends) are getting a LOT of flak from FFL dealers for not coming down hard on C&R holders who are buying and selling at a profit to "enhance" there collections (or pockets) at gun shows and in the news papers.

They tell me it is not worth there time with the laws that now limit punishment to pulling the c&r holders license...but when the new laws kick in (allowing fines and jail time for violations) they are going to start stomping on a lot of C&R holders who are not just "collecting".

if you buy a rifle and happen to sell it for a few bucks more, while making room for others in your safe...that is one thing. But when you buy guns with the ENTENT to resell them for a profit (for helping build your collection or whatever)..then you are violating the law.

With all the hassel the C&R abusers are causing the BATF..I honestly think the C&R license will eventually become a thing of the past. IT is hard as hell these days to get a class 01 FFL like mine...20 years ago just about anyone could get one without having a business......look for that same change to happen to the C&R license.

[Saunders]

As an 03, you have to be careful who you deal with. A lot of 01 guys resent the 03 guys and really resent our ability to buy from anyone in the US especially through many of the fine dealers on the net or even private internet sales.

I am sure a lot of 01s would love to see this eliminated.

[BigBlue]

As an 03, you have to be careful who you deal with. A lot of 01 guys resent the 03 guys and really resent our ability to buy from anyone in the US especially through many of the fine dealers on the net or even private internet sales.

I am sure a lot of 01s would love to see this eliminated.

I guess anyone that cuts into their profits is going to be seen as a threat. The thing is that were all on the same side, trying to get the government off our collective backs as far as firearms are concerned. We have enough to be concerned about with fighting the anti-gun politicians that we shouldn't have to worry about fighting each other.
Don

[ruger22com]

As an 01...03's don't bother me a bit, as long as all they do is collect.

But when they decide to start a little side business without going through the nightmare I went through to get my 01 (Insurence, safes, zoning appeals, getting the police chiefs blessing and getting fingerprinted, not to mention paying city, county and state business taxes and sales taxes, AND paying the ffl fees..and having the batf walk into my place anytime they want and tear my books and stores apart.........maybe you can see why an 01 gets a bit upset when some c&r license decides he can camp out at a gun show and start selling ak47 for a profit.

I Think a better question is why does the C&R license even exist?
Anybody without a c&r (as long as they pass the fbi check of course) can buy a c&r weapon now from a dealer....so why the need for the license?

[Saunders]

03 lets you buy nationally from both dealers and private indidviduals with shipment right to your door. You are not stuck with the limited inventory in your area or the pricing structure. You save transfer fees, too which around here cost 30 bucks.

I guess we have 03s because of the JFK assassination. A mail order Carcano.

Prior to that, you did not need to mess around with a license to order. So, it is a limitation, not a grant of new rights.

I have no problems with 01s but of course, I don't quickly accept the need for federal licenses but I am sure many 01s like the barrier to competition more than they do freer firearm purchases. They are in business and I wish them success.

I have been aware of plenty of "traders" without any sort of license that work the flea markets, gun shows and other places turning a buck selling firearms.
You get to know the faces over the years. I have seen many 01s letting buddies make private sales at their table during a gun show. In fact, I bought my first AK in that fashion.

I know a lot of guys with huge pre ban inventories that were greatly in favor of keeing the AWB in effect to keep prices up. People pursue self interest.

Dealers that offer fair pricing, good service and a friendly, helpful atmosphere are going to do fine. I am lucky to have a local shop like that but I think 1 in 5 FFLs operate that way, sad to say.

[youmightbearedneck]

I Think a better question is why does the C&R license even exist?
Anybody without a c&r (as long as they pass the fbi check of course) can buy a c&r weapon now from a dealer....so why the need for the license?

An EVEN BETTER question is; why does the need for any license exist? Why does the BATFE need to exist?
I have my C&R to buy from wholesalers without having to pay transfer fees. I prefer face to face transactions with an individual in my state. No paperwork.

[Saunders]

With the incredible modern growth of the Feds power to regulate interstate commerce, virtually every activity is already regulated or will be.

What the Feds don't get, the states take on. Often, both states and Feds regulate the same thing. Even the cities get in on the action.

I think I would rather be quartering soldiers than living under the interstate commerce power.