[Greg L]

also, before i came here, i didn't have any idea about the "gun culture" or anything like that. if you had asked me what the american gun culture was, i would have discussed america's obsession with violence in movies and on television. i didn't know that adults who owned guns taught there children anything about the guns, except "don't touch".
and i'm still kinda a little nervous about the whole notion of guns and children, myself. i mean, you all are exceptional teachers. but children are quite curious beings. and i haven't been able to break free of the mental image of some little tiny cute baby crawling around, finding a gun, and playing with it. and then some headline flashes across my mind's eye about the number of accidents involving guns.


W/O mentioned this in another thread and I thought that it was good enough to break off and start a separate one on it.

You say that children are curious beings. This is very true and must be remembered when dealing with them about anything (in general here I’m talking about kids under 10). What we’ve found to work best for us is to remove the mystery from things and let the kids actually experience life. When they were old enough to understand (2-3) they were taken out and shown that guns were not toys. We did this by shooting a jug full of water. The boom and the water going everywhere were enough to show them that they were not toys and shouldn’t be played with. When they expressed an interest in shooting something themselves we made them memorize and understand the four rules of gun safety. After they could they were allowed to under close supervision until it was shown that they knew what they were doing. While they don’t have unrestricted access to our firearms I am comfortable with my oldest going out back and plinking with his bb gun. He has shown us that he can be trusted with it (we watch from the window to check up on him).

The same applies to most anything else that we do around here, remove the mystery from things. If after working outside all afternoon I’m relaxing with a beer and they want a sip then my answer is usually sure (with a reminder not to backwash :) ). They don’t get their own bottle but they can try it. By removing the mystery from it it then becomes not that big of a deal so hopefully by the time that they are teenagers they won’t do something really stupid. If they are helping cook dinner they get to help with all aspects of it. Usually one slip of the knife when cutting up something is enough to teach them forever that they need to be careful. If we’re out driving and I see one playing with his seatbelt then I’ll slam on the brakes (if traffic allows) slamming him into the back of the seat. When out camping we’ll let them find out for themselves that the hotdog stick gets hot after being in the campfire (they were told that it would be). Obviously some things they don’t get to try out at this age (a chain saw springs to mind) but we do try to expose them to different aspects of life.

One of the problems that I see with society today is that too many parents are trying to make everything perfectly safe and build a nerf world for their kids (round corners and no hard objects). The only thing that this does is produce kids that are suddenly 18, out on their own, and completely unprepared for life. In the camping instance above I’ve seen parents that have their kids sit 15 feet away from the campfire, cook the hot dog for them (usually with an 8’ stick), take it off of the stick, and if there was a speck of dirt on it they would throw it away and start over. Around the house the parents are the servants to the child’s every whim and demand (even our three year old knows that if she is hungry and I’m busy that it is much easier (and safer) to get out the bread and peanut butter than to come whine at me). Life needs to be experienced and it is much better to get the basics of that experience when you are younger in a somewhat controlled environment with people (parents) who are around to bail you out before you get in too deep.

Greg (as I was typing this my three year old just showed up with a smile on her face and a plate in her hands. She had made toast for breakfast (I think that her older brother might have helped a bit), true the butter was on a bit thick but she did it herself and was very proud of it.)

[Baba Louie]

Greg,

Excellent Post sir. I concur.

Life is a series of risks to be (hopefully) mastered. Having someone (parents) help you and guide you till you "reach the brow of your first hill" alone is a must and goes without saying (or so I thought). Perhaps it just depends on what type of future generation we all want to leave behind us. Perhaps its all about caring and giving a darn about others (our children) before ourselves.

And I'd like to think that its been this way since the days of the cave dwellers.

But then again, there are "crackhead" uncles who leave loaded handguns around for their nephews to find and tragically take to school. Genetic diminution?

Adios Amigos

[miquela]

What? You mean parents aren't supposed to serve their children's every whim? Wow! What a novel idea, to teach children responsibilty... :rolleyes:

Greg,
You are a wise man and your children are so very lucky! Sadly, it seems you, and they, are the minority these days. Excellent post, written very well, I concur completely (and love the image of your daughter standing there showing off the toast she was so proud of :D). You sir, are one of those men who is to be admired and respected. :)

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: miquela ]

[LASur5r]

Greg L. ,
I applaud you, sir. Well said.

Baba Louie,
I forgot what I was going to say in response, but it was along the lines of "Good on ya."

I brought up my daughter when she was about 2 years old to see what a gun was. I opened the slide and let it snap close on a pencil so that she could see what the results were. Then when she was a little older I took her out to an open field where we could shoot and i shot a pumpkin...she saw the results and heard the report of the gun.
I left the gun (empty) on the coffee table so that she wasn't curious about it. At fifteen years old, she is now my shooting buddy....one of the prettiest young ladies that I have ever seen in shooting glasses, shooting hat, and ear muffs. (Even if I do say so myself).
One time it was funny to see the reaction of an ex friend (an anti, that's why they are an ex), she came over on a drop by visit..as we were sitting in the living room, my 2 1/2 year old walked in holding my 1911, barrel pointed towards the ground away from everyone and tiny hands out of the trigger guard...held correctly as taught. My daughter was bringing my gun to me to put it away.
Funny thing after my friend's shock wore off, she thought it was a toy gun...after all my little daughter shouldn't be handling such a dangerous weapon.
She's a fine shooter with no accidents so far. (My daughter)

[WyldOne]

this whole thing goes back to why i'm just not sure about the "gun free zones" at schools. to be perfectly honest, sounds good to me. guns and little kids just don't sound like a good mix in my mind.

but then, i was gonna save all those qustions for another thread. :)

you let your little kids drink beer? and fire guns (still working on the whole stigma of this)? this just sounds so....incredibly different. i can't really say much here; if i haven't mentioned it before, my parents were *definitely* nerf parents. (we even played with nerf toys) and i love them dearly but, to be quite honest they've just ended up complicating things for me (and all this time i thought ALL parents were supposed to complicate things :p). and i don't have (or WANT) kids so i know less than nothing about raising them. so it's just not my place to tell other people how to raise their kids....

but i did have a question:


<STRONG>Obviously some things they don’t get to try out at this age </STRONG>

where do you draw the line? shouldn't they be learning about chainsaws also?

[Greg L]

{time to cut ‘n paste to Word because if I didn’t I’m sure that the board would come down just as I was getting ready to hit “post”}

They don’t get to drink beer (not much anyway). They are allowed however to have a sip of it if they want to (and I have one open at the time, they can’t go to the fridge and get one out :D). The same applies to a glass of wine at dinner, if they want a sip to see what it tastes like then that is fine. By taking the mystery out of it now hopefully they won’t take it to extremes later. It probably works out to less than ¼ oz but they think that it is cool to share a beer with dad after working out in the yard.

Yes they shoot the guns (the three year old only the bb gun with me holding the barrel but she still gets a big grin and after two shots she gets bored and wanders off. But the mystery is being taken away for her) they also get to help clean them afterwards. By doing this they learn how they work and how to safely operate them. Many of the accidental shooting that you read about are a result of someone who knows nothing (or very little) about firearms getting one somehow. He somehow takes the safety off and shoots his friend sitting across from him (and claim that “it just went off” )

As far as to where to draw the line it really depends on the kid. I trust mine more than some of their friends of a similar age (many of their friends though have parents with a similar mindset so we all get to go do fun things together). Some of their friends I wouldn’t trust to walk 25’ with a sharp stick in their hands. Others have been standing next to me with a loaded gun and I don’t worry about it (I keep a corner of my eye on them of course).

All of my kids have been exposed to a chain saw, they get to stack the wood after I cut it. So they have seen what it can do and do in a hurry. They also get to cut up some of the wood with a bow saw to learn the difference in speed and just what the chain does. It is more a matter of physical strength with the chain saw rather than trust. Right now they are not big enough to be able to control it safely. The same applies to circular saws, they don’t have the physical strength to control it if something goes wrong. They might/probably could control it if everything is perfect but Mr. Murphy is always hanging around. They have used other power tools (under supervision) to build things. If the risk of injury is low and they have been watching me to see the way that things work then if they want to try something I’m usually willing to let them.

Greg

Btw: I had typed the example of them getting their own food before Maureen showed up with her toast. She had seen that I was busy and knew that she was allowed to and able to get her own breakfast

[mrsMTN]

Chainsaws are too big, in that the "catastrophe zone" isn't limited to a little hole at the end. The chain whips around about a 3' ellipse or larger, almost as big as the average toddler/preschooler. (They also can't lift them.)
I am a tremendous critic of the "nerf" world, as I see (in my line of work) the disastrous results when a kid enters "real life." Have you ever read "The Rules?" I have them posted on our department's web site, on the "Teens" page:

THE RULES

Rule #1 - Life is not fair. Get used to it.

Rule #2 - The world won't care about your self esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.

Rule #3 - You will NOT make 40 thousand dollars a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice president with a car phone, until you earn both.

Rule #4 - If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss. He doesn't have tenure.

Rule #5 - Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your grandparents had a different word for burger flipping. They called it opportunity.

Rule #6 - If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes. Learn from them.

Rule #7 - Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you are. So, before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parents' generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.

Rule #8 - Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life has not. In some schools they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as many times as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.

Rule #9 - Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you find yourself. Do that on your own time.

Rule #10 - Television is NOT real life. In real life, people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.

Rule #11 - Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one.

Not really totally on topic, but it's another approach to kids who grow up "nerfed."
Our kids were not wrapped in cotton batting, but were allowed to make their own mistakes (within reason, of course), to learn by doing and to do for themselves, even if they hurt themselves in the process. They didn't turn out too bad, if I say so myself.
Nobody here is trying to say that kids should have free access to everything dangerous, but to receive the supervision needed to learn what dangerous means in specific terms.

[Old Soldier]

miquela, I am also in that small minority with Greg, I have taught my two kids about guns, as I do have them around all the time, you know being a gunsmith.Son even helps refinish some of the stocks I do.

[miquela]

Soldier,

I don't doubt for a minute that you are in that minority. In fact, I would venture to say that it's quite possible that most of the parents who belong to this board are. :) We* seem to be of a different mindset than a lot of the folks I see walking around here. But then, I live in Jersey, and they voted down CCW... ;)

*By we, I meant members of this board, "gun people" etc... I am not a parent but if I ever am blessed with children, I would hope to raise them in much the same manner several of you have illustrated.

[Old Soldier]

miquela, Up untill about two yrs. ago I was a single parent and had both kids from the time they were born, well two weeks after that, and only used a baby setter when I was on my drill week end and two weeks summer camp. They went where I went all the time. Could not go shooting then, but now we can, I do take them with me now. Give my son a .22 single shot rifle for his 11th birthday and it stays in the gun safe when were not at the range or being cleaned. :o

[Bubba]

This is a post I did on Tactical Forums back in April... kinda holds to this topic...
-----
Having been through this once with my now 26 year old daughter, I learned a bit from the experience and am following through with the "twins". They are a REAL challenge as they are both ADHD. Thus absolute rules are a must. Failure to observe the rules result in immediate removal of privaleges. It just HAS to be that way with two very excitable 9 year old boys.

So, how did we start? There are no mysteries around firearms. Any new firearm brought into the house is available for inspection. Curiosity will make smart active minds LOOK for a way to understand what is new. So I am right up front with them. "Yes, boys. This is new. Would you like to see it?" This starts rule practice 101. They know the rules.

I may first quiz them on all Four Rules of Gun Handleing. I don't want them to expect it. But I want them to know them cold. Most of the time, they get them right off.

Next comes Rule 1 in practice.. since all guns are always loaded, you MUST know how to physicaly check a weapon to be sure it is empty before you receive it. IF they have not seen a particular weapon before, the answer is .. "Can you show me how to be sure it is empty?" IF they have experience with a particular system, they MUST show ME that it is empty.

Now the trick here... is to TRY and set them up. I know that sounds mean. But we are talking about safety here and good gun skills that will last a lifetime. I won't apologize for training that. So I will on occasion hand them a weapon I have previously checked myself to be unloaded but I don't open it for them. If they back away or open and check it themself, bonus points and lots of praise. Here is where the benefit of twins comes into play. If they do NOT check, that boy has to return the weapon and his brother gets to continue. He does not. Talk about power of reinforcement! I also enlist my friends to try to trip them up as well. Any number of my friends could visit with a firearm. IF the boys ask to see it, the friend knows the drill. And the boys know.. Rule 1. And they will not accept the gun without that proof.

The next stage is practice. Bay has explained the benefit of Air guns. I certainly agree. I am a strong proponent of immediate feedback. I invested in one of the magnetic pellet traps. It has little metal ducks. When shot, the duck sticks to a magnet in the trap and stays down. There is a final target that releases the magnets and allows the targets to reset. I can set this up in my garage and practice at any time. (its good for grown ups too who want to practice trigger control and has a bit better reinforcement than just dry fire alone. )

We treat the garage like any live range. Even though it is just a pellet gun, I still enforce eyes and ears. I just want them to understand, you shoot.. you use the safety equipment.. everytime.

We take turns with the single shot rifle and the single shot pistol. They alternate shots. Again, the benefit of twins works to our advantage here as well. If there is ANY violation, range time is STOPPED! And I mean RIGHT FREAKIN NOW! The offending party is quized to his mistake. His brother is quized. And the offending brother is done for the day. He gets to sit and watch as his brother has fun. It just KILLS him. (And it doesn't do a whole lot for me either. ) But it works. He will not make that mistake again.

I do take them to the full range when the crowds are not too bad. They have Henry Lever Action .22s which are based on the Winchester model 94. We set them up on the range and use the Dayglow stick-on target spots. These black targets turn yellow when they are hit. Again, positive reinforcement. Knowing immediately they have been successful. Before too long they are compeating against each other to see who gets the most X rings.

Some may hold that I am too harsh in this system. To that I say, try dealing with ADHD for a while and you will soon learn as we have that displine must be consitant and firm to get the message across. Once they understand, they thrive.

More training is planned. I take them one at a time with me to an occasional IDPA match. They learn about range safety, shagging brass and tapeing targets. I hope to get them started shooting IDPA like environments with a .22 within the next year.

This is still a work in progress. But so far, it seems to be working very well.

[WyldOne]

Originally posted by Bubba:
<STRONG>I may first quiz them on all Four Rules of Gun Handleing. I don't want them to expect it. But I want them to know them cold. Most of the time, they get them right off.</STRONG>

so some people are just born knowing these things? or they have esp or something?


<STRONG>Next comes Rule 1 in practice.. since all guns are always loaded, you MUST know how to physicaly check a weapon to be sure it is empty before you receive it. </STRONG>

that sounds contradictory to me. are they supposed to be loaded or unloaded? and why are you checking to make sure that it's the opposite of what it's supposed to be?

i'm not really very comfortable with this thread anymore. it's making me angry at my parents and i thought i'd gotten beyond that. :(

[miquela]

GREAT post Bubba! Another fine example of some very lucky children and an admirable parent. :) And personally, I don't think you're being too hard on the boys if they do something wrong. Mistakes can have very serious reprocussions, and having them stop while the other still gets to have fun, it's going to help cement that lesson into their brains. I know you know that, and likely don't need reinforcement from me, but I've taught a lot of kids, and serious mistakes demand serious punishment. And with competitive little boys (wonder where they get that from? ;) ), to make one watch the other have fun, it's going to be extremely effective. Well done!

W/O, if you adapt the mentality that all guns are always loaded, there is an inherent respect you will have for any gun that you pick up and handle. Until you inspect it with your own eyes and see that it is indeed empty, you must assume that it is loaded. It's just another example of the mental discipline we go through to avoid accidents.

Ex: Charlie was doing what we call dry firing in his basement. (Make sure that the gun is empty, then aim and fire at a target-something you are willing to destroy in case you failed to make sure that the gun is indeed empty). Anyway, he had been dry firing for a while. John came over to visit and sat down, Charlie got up to get the phone, left his gun on the coffee table. John then got up got up. Charlie and John came back and sat back down, Charlie picked up his gun and went to dry fire, and shot his TV. :eek: (This is why we don't let the muzzle of a gun cross anything that we are not willing to destroy - an expensive lesson to learn the hard way - it could have ended much worse than shooting his tv).

When Charlie came back and picked up his gun, he failed to check it. No it didn't just reload itself, but John had a similar gun and when he came in, he set it on the table next to Charlie's. Charlie wasn't paying a lot of attention when he picked up what he thought was his gun. :confused: :eek: :( I didn't make this up. Yeah I fudged the names to protect some friends (no one from here, so don't start trying to guess who), but it really did happen. And boy was my friend's wife mad when she got home! But this is one illustration of why we say that ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED and treat them all as such.

W/O, I understand your frustration. But don't be angry with your parents. They just didn't know.

The good news is that you have the opportunity now to learn these things yourself by hanging out with and ansking questions of some of the best folks around. The experience and knowledge we have at our fingertips, right here, is amazing. I apologize for taking it for granted so often. I have learned a great deal here at the FFF. Thanks everyone. :)

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: miquela ]

[Bubba]

Originally posted by WyldOne:
<STRONG>
so some people are just born knowing these things? or they have esp or something?
</STRONG>

Not at all Denise. I have taught the Four Rules of Gun Safety to them. Several times. But we go over them every single time. As a reinforcement process. With the ADHD, we take nothing for granted. I want them VERY focused before we start.


<STRONG>
that sounds contradictory to me. are they supposed to be loaded or unloaded? and why are you checking to make sure that it's the opposite of what it's supposed to be?
</STRONG>

Well... this is one of those... It doesn't matter what you THINK you know... assume the worst case and then prove it wrong. Never assume the best case. We all operate on the premise that even though I just checked a firearm to see if it was loaded, if I set it down or hand it to anyone else, they must prove to themselves the gun is still unloaded. Thus.. we opperate as IF the gun WAS loaded until we prove to ourselves it is not. And I never take anyone else's word that a gun is unloaded. I check for myself. This is the skill I am trying to engrain into my boys. Even if I were to tell them the gun was not loaded, they should STILL assume it IS loaded and check it for themselves.

Good questions, Denise. This is another one of those areas that we as gun owners take for granted because we have had them engrained into our behavior for so long. It takes new blood like yourself to remind us that not everyone has the same frame of reference and we need to be very articulate in our discussions.

Peace.

[Jeff OTMG]

Teaching children about firearms to take away the mystery, and hopefully then the curiosity, is a common method recommended to many LEO's who have children. It is what the FBI teaches and is how my father treated me. His pistol would come off the belt when he came home, still in the holster, still loaded, and sat on top of his dresser, in the open. Maybe not the safest way to do things, but I am still here and had many home taught gun safety sessions before I even went to school. I treated my son the same way and took all the mystery out of it. To us a gun had the potential to be dangerous if misused, just like the stove in the kitchen or the power tools in the garage, but if treated and used correctly was no more dangerous than one of the steak knives.

[WyldOne]

Originally posted by miquela:
<STRONG>W/O, I understand your frustration. But don't be angry with your parents. They just didn't know. </STRONG>

no. if they had been good parents, i wouldn't be in this situation right now.

edited to add...

so you all believe in sex ed, right?

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: WyldOne ]

[Ottergal]

*This* (http://www.thekcrachannel.com/sac/news/localnews/stories/news-localnews-109784820011129-201132.html) is why ALL children (and adults) need to know the 4 basic rules of gun safety. And sadly, this is far from the first time something like this has happened here, and it was completely avoidable.

I never hesitate to teach my students those 4 rules...as Bubba stated, they can't hear them enough. And perhaps it may impact them a bit more hearing the message from me, and not just their parents. Then again, I may be the only one who teaches them those rules...since some come from non gun owning families (or less than responsible families). Hopefully they will remember them if they are ever in a situation where there is a gun.

Fortunately I work in a community that is very supportive of the RKBA, so I am not going to get any flak for teaching this stuff (after all, this is Cali). I can safely say that I am probably the only teacher at this school who does talk about this stuff with my students, but at least they are hearing it from someone. And if my students remember and pass that info on to their friends, then I have done a good thing. It might not be considered a "PC" thing to teach, but it is common sense. Better that they be knowledgable about guns and alive, rather than ignorant and dead.

Besides, what's the district going to do? Fire me for trying to keep our kids safe? :rolleyes:

Edited again to add: I saw a portion of the video game these boys were playing. What the hell are parents thinking letting their kids have this kind of crap???? :mad:

[ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: Ottergal ]

[ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: Ottergal ]

[WyldOne]

otter...can i ask what you teach?


(not to be nosey, but if you teach math or english or something...how do you work in the 4 rules of gun safety into the lesson plan?)

[Ottergal]

Wyldone,

I am a Special Education teacher (Language, Speech and Hearing Specialist) for preschool thru sixth graders of varying cognitive abilities (gifted to extremely cognitively impaired). I am also a key person on our crisis team, along with many other hats I wear.

I am able to work with children one on one or in small groups so we have some very interesting discussions. My kids are VERY open with me about all their interests, concerns, fears etc. Believe it or not, guns come up a lot in their converstions, in a variety of contexts. If I ignored the topic or told the kids we couldn't talk about guns I would be doing them an extreme disservice.

Yes, teachers are required to teach the curriculum. But many of us also end up being mother/father/counselor/nurse/protector etc to these children. Our number one job is to keep these kids safe, at all costs. So not only do we have to teach the required curriculum, but we also have to teach them about LIFE, and there is no textbook for that.

I work with hundreds of students (and their parents) per year, but I also have contact with almost every kid on that campus because I am visible and considered a "safe" person for them to open up to. It is a unique (and challenging) position, and I love the fact that I can impact so many students' lives, in so many ways.

[WyldOne]

oh, well that definitely makes a lot more sense. :) i had very odd mental images of..."creative" math and spelling lessons.... :D

[Ramangel]

Originally posted by WyldOne:
<STRONG>
so you all believe in sex ed, right?
</STRONG>

Absolutely! I taught my daughter about sex so she would know the truth about it, not some stories her friends passed on. Too much of a chance for misinformation if she would have had to learn it from her peers. And although the school offered sex ed classes it is not a teacher's job to teach my child the facts of life, that's my job.

[John Henry]

Bubba .... "Some may hold that I am too harsh in this system. To that I say, try dealing with ADHD for a while and you will soon learn as we have that displine must be consitant and firm to get the message across."

The only part of the above that I can't agree with is the idea that it is only valid for kids having ADHD ! I used the same general method to teach my son and my daughter, both of whom are considered (by some) to be "normal". "Most" kids have short attention spans. "Most" require repedative presentation of any idea if you intend to get it into the "reflex" stage that is required for the rules of gun handling. Without the reflex stage of the rules you are courting the potential of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" degree of gun handling.

A bit off topic ....
Years ago (when I still had an FFL) I bought a hand gun collection at an estate sale. Took my son (9 years old, at the time) with me to change the ownership papers. Since there were 42 handguns in the collection we were taken into one of the back offices at the "cop shop" where we had room to spread out (God, I wish I still had ALL of those). We were going through the forms, with the local LEO doing the typing, when I said to my son, "Bring me the 4" bbl. DWM Luger, I want to verify the serial number". He scanned the various desk and table tops for a moment and then replied, "Do you want the 9mm or the 7.65"? .... seemed like a very natural question to me, but, the LEO lost it. "That kid knows more about handguns than most of the guys working out of this station". "Do you mind if I bring my watch commander in here, to let him see what some education can do"?
So for the next 1/2 hour we had a audiance. I'd call out the description of an item, son would locate it, open the action, and hand it (butt first) to the typist for verification.

Just to make the point that some things we come to feel are "natural" and take (almost) for granted can be viewed by others as something we must have been born with.

[Bubba]

Originally posted by John Henry:
<STRONG>Bubba .... "Some may hold that I am too harsh in this system. To that I say, try dealing with ADHD for a while and you will soon learn as we have that displine must be consitant and firm to get the message across."

The only part of the above that I can't agree with is the idea that it is only valid for kids having ADHD ! </STRONG>

Point taken. My feeble writing skills are to blame here. Not the intent. The ADHD forces us to hold very tight limits on what the boys can and can not do. It applys to everything we do, not just firearms training. What is different for us than most families is the attention span tends to be shorter and what I call the "bubble over factor" appears from out of nowhere. That is that my guys can get very excited to the point they are no longer thinking about what they are doing. And this happens in very short order. So we have to watch for that condition much closer with the boys than most other families do.

But you know what? The good news is firearms training is one of the places where they "get it" and stay in control much better. They understand the dangers while shooting. And they stay focused here as well as they do with that bloomin Pokemon Gameboy. :D

Thanks for keeping me honest to writing with greater clarification. I appreciate it.

[Bubba]

Originally posted by Ramangel:
<STRONG>

Absolutely! I taught my daughter about sex so she would know the truth about it, not some stories her friends passed on. Too much of a chance for misinformation if she would have had to learn it from her peers. And although the school offered sex ed classes it is not a teacher's job to teach my child the facts of life, that's my job.</STRONG>

Otter and I have had a couple of discussions about her work and the challenges I face with my ADHD boys. Otter is my hero. :) I once teased her asking how she dealt with all the little boys who get their first crush on Miss Otter. :D

Denise and Rammy, Interesting you should bring this supject up at this time. I got a FRANTIC call from a frined of my in Florida this week. Seems her 11 year old son had found some porno sites on the net. The safeguards are in place and he didn't find anything but the entry screens. But those are bad enough. And some icons got added to her machine to go back to those sites.

She was beside herself. Now, I should mention, this friend is a widow. So the facts of life to a male offspring has some emotional issues for both of them. The jist of the panic call was... Uncle Bubba... PLEASE.. can you come give him... "The Talk"???? :rolleyes:

So Denise.. to answer your question...I will do so much in the same way Rammy did. Yes I believe in it. And I believe it is every parent's responsibility to do so. To take the mystery out of it. And to be open and honest about the entire range of subjects that come into play. This was the nature of my friends call. She needs help to handle this. She wants a certain set of values installed into her children. I am humbled and honored that she feels I can step in as a "family member" to help with this important step in her child's development. Yes.. I am going to talk to Mikey.

But I don't believe it is the schools job. There are certain values pertaining to sex that I believe in. And I want to impress upon my children how important those values are to us as a family. The school does not and can not press those same values. But I certainly don't want anything they DO teach to undermine what I consider core values to MY family. It just happens that my core beliefes are the same as my friend's. This is a major reason she is trusting me to help with her son.

All that said... I do understand the school may be the ONLY hope that some children have to learn ANY true facts about this subject. Not all parents care or will take the time to educate their children on this very touchy subject. So, the only way I can support sex ed in schools is if the school provides the option for the parent to sign the child out of such classes with the premise that sex education will take place in the home.

My personal views will most likely NOT be the same as many others in my community. But the school has no business teaching my children concepts that are differnt from my core beliefs. I will cover those topics with my children. But I will explain them in terms that do not cut into my belief system.

I am sure this will not be a popular position with some folks here. I want to stress... this is NOT about religion or sexuality. This is about what value systems I want my children to have. And I am the one who is responsible for that. Not the school system.

I am sure many of the parents who home school are sitting there with a big grin on their faces right now. :) I think I just made a lot of their case for home schooling. :)

[Grayfox]

I'm in total agreement with what's been said about teaching kids about firearms. Most of these so-called accidental shootings are actually the result of a parents misguided attempts to protect their children. The parent buys a firearm, but doesn't trust their children (or maybe its themselves they don't trust) so they attempt to hide it from the kids. Naturally, the child will find it sooner or later and having not been properly taught what it is and how it works, they will play with the gun just like they've seen on TV. This is how accidents happen.
The biggest mistake a parent can make is to assume that they can hide anything from their children. T'ain't so. Children are curious critters by nature. Its natural for them to poke around in places they aren't supposed to be. So, no matter what it is or how well you think you've hidden it. They WILL find it.
BTW: remember that old dirty magazine that's been in the bottom of your sock drawer for so long that you've forgotten it? Odds are that your kids have read it more times than you have. ;)

[Turtlenapper]

Hey Grayfox
I found your dirty books & movies
:rolleyes: :eek: :D :D :D

[BIWOZ]

Well, it's Sunday night already here. I just got back from a weekend away in the country with one of my mates, his 17-year-old son, and two of his friends.

Ian (my mate's son) had shot before -- neither of the other two had even touched a gun, let alone fired one.

My observations:

* They had NO IDEA of how to hold a rifle -- none, zip, zilch, zero
* They had no idea of how to aim a rifle -- even using a scope.
* Both of them screwed their eye firmly into the rear objective of the scope to shoot -- because they'd "seen that on TV".
* When one was lined up to fire (off a table, at a target), the other yelled, "Go, man, blow it away!!!", until I explained (tactfully) why that wasn't really the way to think about it.
* Until they shot, they had no concept of "missing" the target. (That never happens on TV, right???)
* One of them, left-hander using my rifle (right-handed) will be a damned good shot if he continues. He was so proud (and so determined to succeed), it was great to see.
* A .22 Stinger into a pLastic bottle of water gave them a whole new perspective on firearms and their misuse!!
* 17-year-old boys can vacuum food: one meal I cooked for them was a 5lb steak roast + 4.5lb roast potatoes + 2 lb carrots + 1.5 lb green peas + 3 x corncobs (cut in half) + bread and gravy -- two hours cooking gone in 20 minutes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bruce

[Baba]

BIWOZ (Bruce),

Sounds like a great weekend to me. Kids, guns, and the great outdoors. Yeah, sounds like my childhood.

Tell me please sir, are they brainwashing the kids down under as they do here into believing that all guns are bad and Eeeeevil?

If, in America, 80 million people (an estimate) out of 280 million people (28%) own firearms; whats the number down under, what with the gun-crunching we saw of the Semi-Auto's?

Is there an AUS version of the NRA and how do they go about teaching gun safety? Do the high schools have shooting clubs (gone here in USA in the past 30 years)? Is the average policeman pro or con on private gun ownership (as opposed to the politically appointed or elected Chiefs)?

Curious minds want to know. Well, at least I do.

Adios Mate

[Gunslinger]

Denise, just to elaborate on the issue of teaching children to check to see if a gun is loaded; This done to insure the gun is not loaded unless one is about to actually shoot and it is not something restricted to just children. This is a habit that everyone that is knowledgable about guns does. As an example picture three others from here sitting in my living room, I may have gotten a gun I had not had on their last visit and all of us being gun enthusiast want to show it off. The first thing I would naturally do would be to check the gun to insure that it is not loaded before handing it to say Grayfox. Gray, the moment he takes it, would check once again to insure it is unloaded before examining it and handing it to say John Henry. John will check it again even before looking at it and hand it to Bubba. Bubba, without missing stride will check the same gun first even though he has just seen three of us check it before handing it to him. I, Gray and John would not be insulted in any fashion that Bubba just checked a gun that he knew we had just checked. That is the way it is done and what prevents accidents. But at the same time we were all looking at it even though we had all checked to insure it was not loaded we would all be extremely careful to point it at one another or antyhing thing else in the room we would not want shot. None of this would be part of the conversation and would be done naturally because that is the way we were taught. When kids are taught these sames rules and obey them the mystery is removed and accidents are prevented.
I just wanted to toss that in because I knew you have not had the benefit of seeing adults handle guns other than your one shooting trip with mrsMTN and thought it might help to understand we all do it and how valuable it is when teaching young and/or inexperienced shooters.

[Bubba]

EXCELLENT example Bill. :) Especially the part about no one being offended as each person checked the gun again. I was showing TiGGer off recently in a Gun Store. A mutual friend of ours came up to see what had our attention. My friend who works at the store handed TiGGer off to the late commer with the statement, "I just checked it." The gentleman opened up the slide and commented with a smile, "Now, so have I."

Denise, this is the skill I am trying so hard to install into my boys. That no matter what ANYONE says, you treat that gun as if it is loaded. And then ... you make sure it isn't. :) None of us handle loaded firearms around each other. But we treat the unloaded ones as if they were loaded. Never takeing ANYTHING for granted or opening up any chances for a mistake.

[USP45usp]

W/O and others. Here is a small story of what I learned (and my father learned) when I was growing up.

My father had guns in the house, some loaded for protection of the family and others not. He taught me the safety rules, the punishment if I touched without permission, and he showed me what guns can do.

But, since kids are curious and he knew this, he taught me about guns but forgot to say anything about knives. He didn't want me to have a knife and didn't teach me about them like he did with guns.

Well, the knife (not the gun since I'd been taught and had my own Pellet gun and later .22) was the "forbidden" object. Since it was the "forbidden" object I went out of my young way to aquire a knife. I hide it from him and showed all my friends my "forbidden object".

Well, he found it (dang parents, always looking out for me and going through my stuff) and we had a LONG talk about what I'd done. He got the message and bought me a Uncle Henry pocket knife for chrismas. Once I got one and it was no longer "forbidden" my interest quicky evaporated and it was just another tool.

That reminds me of another story. I grew up from 7th grade to 12th in the country on 50acres of land that my dad had purchased in Florida. Anyone, one day (I think during the summer vacation) I was at home and my dog started barking. The "mean" bark that dogs give when something ain't right. Anyway, I step outside and I hear the distinct rattle of a rattle snake. I go back into the house and get my .22 from my room and the last three pieces of ammo (single shot). I then go out and see this 60ft (okay, it was 5ft long but to a 14yo it looked 60) and my stupid dog trying her best to get bite (again). I load up, fire, and nothing, just pissed off the snake. I reload and try it again. At this point, I think that the snake just isn't going to give up the ghost. I reload, last shot, and basically put the barrel into the snakes mouth (I fired when it struck) and that did it. I was so proud.

My dad got home and I showed him the carcass. I then told him that I got it with my .22. He looked me straight in the eye and asked, "why didn't you use the 20gauge in the closet, that's what it's there for?". I looked at him and stated, "Because you told me to never touch your guns without permission and you weren't here".

I got permission from that day on to use the 20gauge for snakes and rabid animals.

USP45usp

[WyldOne]

Originally posted by Gunslinger:
<STRONG>Gray, the moment he takes it, would check once again to insure it is unloaded before examining it and handing it to say John Henry. John will check it again even before looking at it and hand it to Bubba. Bubba, without missing stride will check the same gun first even though he has just seen three of us check it before handing it to him. I, Gray and John would not be insulted in any fashion that Bubba just checked a gun that he knew we had just checked. That is the way it is done and what prevents accidents. </STRONG>


okay i think i'm slowly starting to see this, but not really. :)

in the above example, are they just checking out of habit? or are they checking to check? because....when (not to mention why) would anyone even have the chance to put anything in the gun? if the person checks it and its unloaded, then hands it to his friend....wouldn't it still be unloaded?

also, is this just for gun handling, or for all guns all the time? i know that a lot of people here collect guns just to collect them; are those ones, the ones that are obtained strictly for collecting/coolness (is there some word there?) factor, are they kept loaded also? even if all they're gonna do is sit in a case or on a wall or...well wherever they're kept?

[Bubba]

Originally posted by WyldOne:
<STRONG>
in the above example, are they just checking out of habit? or are they checking to check? because....when (not to mention why) would anyone even have the chance to put anything in the gun? if the person checks it and its unloaded, then hands it to his friend....wouldn't it still be unloaded??</STRONG>

Yes, you are begining to get it. :) You are correct. The gun is still unloaded. BUT By our code of conduct and the Four Gun Safety rules.. even though I saw it unloaded when it was handed to me.... I will STILL check it myself; expecting it to BE loaded. But I need to prove to myself that it is indeed unloaded. Every single time. Do I expect anyone to put something in it? Nope. But because of the power of the firearm, I will never take anything for granted. I make it my habit when touching ANY gun... regardless of the situation.. I will ALWAYS check it to be sure it is empty. Every Single Time. If I make that my habit, then NO ONE can do anything that would cause me to make a mistake and wind up handling a loaded firearm.

There was never any chance or expectation that anyone put anything into the gun. But I STILL check it. It is the rule.

Originally posted by WyldOne:
<STRONG>
also, is this just for gun handling, or for all guns all the time? i know that a lot of people here collect guns just to collect them; are those ones, the ones that are obtained strictly for collecting/coolness (is there some word there?) factor, are they kept loaded also? even if all they're gonna do is sit in a case or on a wall or...well wherever they're kept?</STRONG>

Folks, I think I see the issue here. Denise, we are at one of those frame of reference points again. My apologies. The rule that all guns are always loaded is not a mandate that we physically always put bullets into every gun we have.

Almost every gun accident that happens the person will say something like... "I thought it was unloaded." What we are saying is this... we treat every gun as if it WERE loaded.. all the time. We never treat a gun as if it were unloaded. Thus rule one "All guns are always loaded." is really saying, you never do anything with ANY gun that could cause a problem if it were loaded.

So when someone hands me a gun, I assume Rule 1. The gun is loaded. I point it in a safe direction and then check to see if there is a bullet in the gun. Even then... I do not point the gun at anyone or any thing that I could not stand to be hit. (Rule 2) So even empty, I would not let the barrel move in such a way that it could be pointed at anyone. I do the same thing if I even set the gun down on a table for a minute. Again... because this is the rule... Assume it is loaded.. even if you know it is not... utill you open it AGAIN.. and make sure.

And I do this.... every single time I am handed a gun. Even if it were Bill that handed it to me.... even if he just checked it... I have so engrained these rules into my behavior that I will not violate them. Even then... I still check it myself. And even if I have just checked it... I fully expect that when I hand it to Greyfox, he will do exactly the same thing.

So... even if I KNEW that the Colt Peacemaker that Bill just got down out of a display case should be unloaded..(after all .. it is just there as art) No matter.. I will STILL check it to see if it is loaded. I trust Bill. I trust Greyfox. I trust Stu. I know in my heart, the disply only gun is unloaded. BUT... Trust has absolutly NOTHING to do with gun safety. I will STILL check it to see if it is loaded.

Does that help? Or have I muddied the waters even more?

[miquela]

Bill and Bubba,
Very good examples. But then I already understood this rule, so my saying it makes sense is kinda silly. Although, I'll make sure to check them even after Bubba checks and hands them to me. I'm not sure that I've done this 100% of the time in the past because as you said Bubba, TRUST is not the issue, gun safety is.

USP,
I like the example of removing the mystery. And the story about the snake. Good for you though to have followed instructions to the letter.

Denise,
You're getting there. :)

[BIWOZ]

Baba

G'day mate

Tell me please sir, are they brainwashing the kids down under as they do here into believing that all guns are bad and Eeeeevil?

Absolutely. I work for an educational publisher, and it is so bad that we have drawn artwork for books showing the Anzac landings at Gallipoli, with the soldiers storming ashore -- and not one of them with a rifle. My younger daughter (15) goes to a private girls' school, and is treated with scorn whenever the subject of firearms comes up because she is the only one in her class who is not vehemently anti-gun.

If, in America, 80 million people (an estimate) out of 280 million people (28%) own firearms; whats the number down under, what with the gun-crunching we saw of the Semi-Auto's?

Nowhere near that, unfortunately. I think 2 000 000 was the last figure I heard; with a population of 20 000 000, that's what ... 10%. Yes, the semi-autos are gone :mad: and many firearms owners never replaced them -- but the majority did replace them with bolt guns or under/over shotguns, so the figures haven't changed all that much. Handguns -- despite the heavy restrictions on ownership, use and storage, are a "growth industry" here. It's just a shame we can't use or carry for self-defence. ("Self-defence" is excluded by law as an acceptable "reason" for wanting a firearm.)

Is there an AUS version of the NRA and how do they go about teaching gun safety? Do the high schools have shooting clubs (gone here in USA in the past 30 years)? Is the average policeman pro or con on private gun ownership (as opposed to the politically appointed or elected Chiefs)?

The closest we have to the NRA is the Sporting Shooters Association of Australia (SSAA). Check their website at www.ssaa.org.au (http://www.ssaa.org.au)

However, they do not have the size or the political clout of the NRA. Our current Prime Minister (spit) refuses to even speak to a representative. That's about 125 000 members he insults.

I know of no secondary school shooting clubs in Western Australia, although cadets have just recently been allowed to shoot again. (After Port Arthur and the new gun laws, cadet units had their firearms (which were only welded-up drill rifles anyway) confiscated and destroyed. They were banned from participating in any shooting as it was deemed "militaristic" and "promoting the wrong image".)

On balance, I would have to say police in Australia are anti-gun -- some more so than others. The young ones are worse; the older ones a bit more pragmatic. None of them likes the huge volumes of paperwork required for licensing.

I just had a .223 added to my licence -- took 14 days and cost me about 2 hours time and $22 licencing fee. Fortunately, I had one of the "good cops" do the addition.

The rules for obtaining a licence are about to be made more stringent here in the West.

It's not pretty and it's going to get worse.

I go out of my way to introduce young people to the shooting sports -- some will like them, some won't. But at least they'll be able to decide from a position of knowledge, rather than ignorance.

Cheers

Bruce

[ 12-02-2001: Message edited by: BIWOZ ]

[Grayfox]

Denise, here's a perfect example of why you always check the gun yourself.
Some years back I was working nights in a really bad neighborhood. Because of this, I kept a revovler in my truck. One evening another employee and I were talking about self defense and he asked to see what I kept in the truck. No problem. We went out to the truck, I got the gun, opened the cylinder, dumped the cartridges in my hand and handed it to him. Note: He saw me unload the gun. He took the gun and imediately opened the cylinder. Guess what! One of the cartridges had stuck in the chamber! The gun was loaded!
This was entirely my fault. I assumed that since I had dumped the cylinder that the gun was empty. WRONG! I should have visually rechecked. Had my co-worker not checked for himself, there could have been a tragic accident. I learned an important lesson that night and have never made this mistake again.

Now do you understand why its so important to always check for yourself?

[jim]

WO

At the moment there is just myself and my two dogs living here. I keep all of my guns except the one defense one unloaded and locked in the safe. The ammunition is in another safe. When I take one out, I check it to make sure it's unloaded.

I was first exposed to shooting before I started school. My dad returned from overseas (I was born while he was serving in WWII) and part of the get to know your dad was to go shooting with him and an old 1911 that followed him home. Most of the time was spent cleaning the pistol, more than actually shooting. And those moments, when he and I would sit down, tear the thing apart, clean each piece and then reassemble it, where very wonderful. I still remember the first time he let me put it together by myself. I was so proud that I thought I would burst.

As an aside, I once took his 45 to school for show and tell. I stood up in front of the class and talked about the gun and the four rules. While I went over the four rules, the pistol was passed around the room for every one to see and handle. Can you imagine how folks today would react? ;)