[Mike Weber]

This is what Idaho is planning on doing in regard to muzzleloader hunting restrictions. All the modern inlines will be reclassified as modern firearms and no longer allowed to be used during muzzleloader season. The modern muzzleloaders will now be included for use during modern firearms hunting seasons.

I've no objections to this as I've always hunted with primitive muzzleloaders during Blackpowder season. The change will probably hurt the sales of modern muzzleloading firearms in Idaho. However the option is still open to those who want to use modern muzzleloaders during the general firearms season.

[Antlurz]

Around here, a lot of guys went the muzzle loading route, simply because they gave you a longer season. Then came the hot rods.

Ron

[Mike Weber]

In many states the muzzleloader season gave the option of filling two deer tags. One of my reasons for going the ML route was the opportunity to stuff an extra deer in the freezer. I'm not against the change in the Idaho law. Some states are even more restrictive such as requiring only flintlocks during blackpowder season.

[Antlurz]

I've never been able to find the actual word "blackpowder" in the Iowa laws. Maybe I haven't looked in the right places, but it sure leaves one to schemes.

Ron

[Mike Weber]

A lot of my friends in the mountain man rendevous crowd consider my Civil War era muskets and carbines to be too newfangled for their tastes.

[OFallon]

Pennsylvania had the best laws: Flintlock and Round Ball - Period.

Kept all of the flatlanders, Silly War people, and inliners at home. :up:

[Popeye]

I believe this is a good change of the law regarding "in-lines".

[Dframe]

I agree popeye. All of my muzzle loader hunting has been done with flintlocks or at the worst, period correct percussion guns.

[budroe]

I'm glad to see it happen too, hope other states follow!!!

[Blammer]

The majority opinion amongst the buckskinners at my club was that the inline guns were just a trick of a bunch of flatland 'slobs' to take advantage of the blackpowder season without taking the bother of acquiering the skills needed to take a deer with a 'traditional' BP weapon.
Not so much about the weapons themselves, as the personality clashes out in the woods & fields when the BP season encounterd 'modern techniolgy' (& things got crowded):down: :D
BTW: I do NOT hunt with my BP weapons, but it's been intresting 'spectating';)

[Antlurz]

What is rather amusing to me is that I can load and ready a traditional percussion rifle faster than I can an inline.

Other than the wow factor, the only plus I see is a bit of incliment weather insurance...

Ron

[OFallon]

I shoot a Dublin model Brown Bess, long land and have a great fun with it, a can of ff and a bag of .72 balls. I need not tell you what happens when that ball connects with Bambi. :D

[Antlurz]

I need not tell you what happens when that ball connects with Bambi. :DLet me guess. Heart stopping surprise by the shooter?

:lol:

That one was too ripe not to pick off the tree. :D :D :D

Never have shot a 72, but a 58 makes a hole big enough to attract a bat colony.

Ron

[OFallon]

Actually, you speak the truth! It's a big boom... and a big "thwack" when the ball hits. One of the real thrills in hunting, in my opinion. :D

[Antlurz]

:lol: I was thinking more in terms of astonishment THAT the ball actually hit. :rotf:

Ron

[OFallon]

I know and, again, you are correct. Patched round ball in a smoothbore and a substantial delay between flash in the pan and boom in the barrel... amazing I ever hit anything beyond 25 yards! Couple of times I was, indeed, more amazed at having hit the deer than you can imagine. Longest shot with the Bess = 50 yards. ;)

[Old Soldier]

And that was a big surprise.:D :D :D :D :D

[Mike Weber]

I need not tell you what happens when that ball connects with Bambi.
I've got a pretty good idea what happens. I've never hunted with a Bess but I've taken several big game animals with. .58 and .54 cal muzzleloaders. My .58 carbine bowls over an elk like a freight train.
and a substantial delay between flash in the pan and boom in the barrel...
That double explosion can be quite un nerving I learned that its not always best to wear a wide brimmed hat while shooting a flinter after singing my eyebrows and catching my beard on fire a time or two.

[Adolf H. Bubba]

Call me paranoid, but I am suspicious of this rule; it could be paving the
way for yet another assault on our gun rights.

Remember how. "divide and conquer"(on semiautos) pushed the 1994 assault weapons ban? Remember Saunders' posts on creeping gradualism?

[caneman]

I was going to start M/L shooting and read muzzleloading forum quite a bit. The comments from the sidehammer group got pretty nasty and insulting and I decidd I didn't really want to associate, even in a forum.

The good thing is that I now have an unfired Hawken Style to go over the mantle. The bad thing is one less M/L shooter.

[shoey]

I dont currently have a smokepole, but would like one. Will probably get a Hawken kit of some sort, as I like the traditional looks. Probably percussion.

In defence of the modern in-lines, though, they are a loophole for shotgun only areas, at least here in WI. Muzzleloaders are legal statewide, and the modern guns allow you to get a bit more range over a shotgun. Quite useful because much of the shotgun only areas are also farm country, so longer shots over a field arent unheard of...

But I like the traditional guns, myself.

[Mike Weber]

Shoey:
If you're looking for a great traditional style muzzlelloader I'd suggest the Lyman Great Plains Rifle as a starter rifle. These are probably the most authentic reproduction of the Hawken rifle short of going the custom rifle route. A .50 or .54 cal version of the GPR is a great choice. I prefer the .54 cal as I hunt both Deer and Elk with muzzleloaders.

[shoey]

Neat. Do they happen to sell the kits? I've always had an interest in getting one of the kits and putting it together myself.

[Mike Weber]

Yep you can get em in kits or finished rifles in either flint or percussion right or left hand.

[shoey]

I will be sure to look into them. Thanks for the info!

[shoey]

Mike, first, thanks for all the info lately.

Second, what would you, or anyone else, suggest as a twist rate. I noticed Lyman, in their plains rifle, offers the original 1 in 60 twist as well as a new hunter version with a 1 in 32 twist. I do want to get the kit eventually, which from what I've seem comes only in the 1 in 50 twist, but midway also sells drop in 1 in 32 barrels.

I seem to understand that the faster twist is for sabots and conicals, while the slower is for patched balls. Is that right? Any reccomendations?

[Mike Weber]

Well as you noticed muzzleloader twist rates vary greatly. Ideally the guns designed to shoot patched roundball loads will have very slow twist rates. 1:60 to 1:72 are good twist rates for patched roundball rifles.

The 1:48-1:50 twist rates are a compromise to allow a muzzleloading rifle to handle either patched round ball loads or conical bullets. Most common in many of todays repro muzzleloaders are 1:48 twist rates. These intermediate twist rates aren't optimal for either conical or round ball but they are as I stated a compromise.

That 1:32 twist rate that you mentioned is optimal for larger caliber conical bullets such as .50 and .54 caliber. My Whitworth which fires a very long .457 diameter conical bullet has a 1:20 twist rate same as the modern .50 BMG

I prefer a muzzleloader with a twist rate thats optimized for the type of bullet I'll be using. If I'm shooting a repro Civil war musket or carbine I want a twist rate optimized for conicals and if I'm shooting a repro Pennsylvania rifle or plains rifle I want a barrel optimized for shooting round ball.

[shoey]

Makes sense. So how much of an advantage to conicals offer on deer sized game out to about 75 yards? I like the idea of keeping things in line with the rifle era, but also would like to have as humane a kill as possible.

[Antlurz]

When one of those huge balls hits a deer, "humaine' is determined by where it hits. They tear one whale of a hole.

Ron

[shoey]

kinda what I figured. Just wanted to be sure at distance. Although, to be honest, most hunting shots would be under 50 yards, 75 is a long one in most of the spots I hunt.

[Mike Weber]

At 50 to 75 yards I see no real advantage with conicals other than pushing a heavier bullet. In a 50 or .54 cal rifle a patched roundball load is deadly at those ranges. I've taken several big game animals with a .58 Cal repro of a civil war carbine including Elk and Moose. This carbine pushes a 530gr hollowbase mini and I use a hefty load of FFG for hunting about 15 gr above what the regulation civil war load was for this gun. Recoil is Hellacious but every animal I've shot with it has dropped like they were hit by a freight train.

[shoey]

Excellent to hear.....now to keep this info in my brain until I can afford the rifle...this summer at the soonest. Thanks again!

[OFallon]

For the 25 years prior to my living in Michigan, I was an avid reenactor of the French & Indian thru RevWar period. I hunted exclusively with black powder and used, primarily, a large bore Bess, a Tulle at .62, and a splendid Lehigh Valley in .50.

For great guns at reasonable prices, I recommend Loyalist Arms, in Halifax, Nova Scotia. They have an excellent website, too. Prices are in both $CDN and $US. Service is great and the product is excellent. I have their Dublin model Brown Bess, Long Land, their civilian model blunderbuss, and both a dragoon pistol and smaller waistcoat pistol. I also have one of their hanger swords. ;)

www.loyalistarms.com (http://www.loyalistarms.com)

[Mike Weber]

Thanks for posting that link Paul. I've been prowling around on the Loyalist site. Was very tempted to get one of their British Sea Service pistols and I like that Baker rifle repro that they offer. They have some very interesting items on their site.

[OFallon]

Mike, overall their guns are great. They may not be up to hand-made custom... but they sure are functional. Their frizzens are well hardened, too. Best of all, their customer support is bangers!

I cannot access their site from work... and I don't know if they do any cap & ball - but, they do sell some of the big company (Pedersoli, etc.) guns.

:up: :D :up:

[Mike Weber]

Paul:
I do like their selection of flintguns I saw several there that I'd like to add to my collection. They do have some percussion guns. was looking at their 1861 Tower Cavalry Carbine. The price looked good then I noticed that their carbine was a smooth bore .65 cal. And If I bought it I would have to find a .58 Cal rifled barrel for it. I've got a Parker Hale 1861 Artillery Musketoon and I really like these guns so I thought I'd add its cavalry variation to the collection. I've been shopping around for a good .54 Cal flint longrifle. I prefer a Lancaster or Lehigh County style. Looked at the Pedersoli Frontier Deluxe but they are spendy. I'm probably going to build one from a kit from Jim Chambers Flintlocks.

[OFallon]

Chambers is the place to go! If Jim can't do it to a lock... it can't be done!

Pedersoli is pricey alright. I have their rolling block in .45-70, with s[porting stock, all checkered and a Vernier tang sight. I bought it in 1997 and paid $400 for it. Today it's over $700.

[Mike Weber]

I've got one of the Pedersoli Billy Dixon Sharps rifles, I recut the chamber to 45-90, I've got Soule Mid and Long Range Tang sites for it. A few custom bullet molds and other accessories for it. All together I've got over $2000.00 tied up in that rifle. Thats the one I use when I'm shooting Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette Rifle Competition.

I do like the selection of components that Jim Chambers offers,the ability to select different grades of wood, choices in barrels, hardware, etc... I'm looking to create golden age rifle that might have traveled west in the early 1800's and one thats suitable for hunting any North American big game as well.

I've also been browsing aroung the Track Of The Wolf Site looking over their offerings in Rifle kits.

[alleyyooper]

Maybe good news, We need to attend the meeting on 7 Mar 07
Idaho may rethink muzzleloader ban
Saturday, February 24, 2007
LEWISTON, Idaho (AP) -- The Idaho Fish and Game Commission may revisit its decision to ban the use of in-line muzzleloader rifles in some hunting seasons, after commissioners have been deluged with letters and phone calls from angry hunters.

Commissioner Alex Irby of Orofino said he will ask other commissioners if they wish to revisit their position at the commission's next meeting in March.

Last month, the commission approved regulations that effectively ban the use of almost all in-line muzzleloader rifles, modern versions of the traditional guns.

Muzzleloader users have vigorously protested the regulation change, starting a letter-writing campaign targeting commissioners, the department, legislators and the governor. They also are circulating a petition protesting the change.
Ed Rankin of Boise bought an in-line muzzleloader last fall. Now he says the gun is useless.

"I'll have myself a boat anchor," he said of the weapon.

He, like many others, argue in-line weapons shoot no farther and are no more accurate than traditional muzzleloaders that are still allowed. But the commission and the Idaho Department of Fish and Game feel otherwise.

The rule change was proposed and adopted because technological advances of the in-line guns improved performance so much that commissioners felt they could no longer justify use of in- lines during muzzleloader-only seasons. Those seasons take place late in the fall when most deer and elk are on winter ranges and slowed by deep snow.

In-line supporters also point to definitions used by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives that call any weapon that is loaded through the barrel a muzzleloader. They think the department and commission should do the same. Those protesting the move say they could live with restrictions to bullets, barrels and powder that would limit the range of muzzleloaders.

Commissioner Tony McDermot of Sagle said he has received more than 200 letters and 75 phone calls from owners of in-line guns. But he said he is not swayed by their arguments and will resist any movements to alter the new regulations.

"If we thought we made a bad decision there is enough courage on our commission to turn that around," he said. "But I don't think it was a bad decision."

Participation in muzzleloader-only hunts has ballooned from about 3,000 hunters in the 1970s to more than 25,000 hunters today.

McDermot said because of the inflated numbers, the commission was faced with either reducing muzzleloader-only hunts or taking the actions it did.

Irby isn't so sure. He said he might be open to altering the rules to allow in-lines, while adopting strict powder and bullet regulations to ensure the weapons can't shoot long range.

One supporter of the new regulations, Gordon Hubbard of Lewiston, is a fan of traditional muzzleloaders such as those used by the frontiersmen.

"When you look at a muzzleloader I see it as a primitive weapon and every time you take a step toward modernizing them, they are just taking a step away from the primitive idea of muzzleloader hunting," Hubbard said.

The commission's next meeting is March 7-9 in Boise.

Information from: Lewiston Tribune, http://www.lmtribune.com (http://www.lmtribune.com)

:D a primitive weapon As I see it is a rock and a sharp stick. Every one can define it to suit what they want and to exclude others.

I also agree with the divide then take your pivoting hammer gun away croud.

:mad: If the rules would have been wrote properly like PA. then there wouln't be any question of what is and isn't allowed.
I think the first mass marketed Tony Knight modern inlines hit the market in 1985. States have allow their use for 22 years and now all of a sudden after thousands have bought them the state wants to ban them. Sort of like saying that cars useing gasoline instead of diesel be banned after all these years. No phase out just you can not use your gas powdered car tomorrow.

:D Al

:D Al

[ExSniper]

I always thought the in-lines were on par with taking a reloading set up in the field with you and building a round every time you shoot. It is no longer a "muzzleloader" it is a centerfire rifle with the chamber as cartridge case.

The use of antique or close repros of the old persussion and flintlock guns made the muzzleloading season a challenge to the skills and abilities of the hunter. Modern equipment and techniques take away most of the necessary skills of hunting.

Hopefully more states will follow suit and eliminate the equipment trumps skill crowd.

[alleyyooper]

Lock time with a side lock isn't any slower than an inlines. I have found my cap locks are just as good as any inline with a scope, sabots or even conicals. Of course I don't need a a cows knee with my inlines like I do with the cap locks in inclement weather.

And if Michigan were to try the stunt new Idea Ho has did there would be lynchings of that I am sure. Fact Is I bet there would be marches on Lansing in the news a lot.

:D Al