[ExSniper]

Rookie started a thread on defense scenarios and is getting good responses. I wanted to share two that I use in my ccw classes. What would you do?

1. About 8 pm in the multi-story parking garage of a local upscale shopping mall. You have finished shopping and are walking to your car. You see and hear a man and woman arguing, the man hits the woman repeatedly. You cannot make out exactly the words, but it seems quite bitter and threatening. The woman is crying loudly, then she yells "Help!" You are carrying your licensed concealed pistol in accordance with the law. As you get closer, the fight seems to be getting more violent. What do you do?


2. Mid-afternoon in the parking lot (outdoors) of a major shopping mall. You park your car and get out. Three cars away, between you and the mall entrances, a seedy looking Hispanic male, in his mid-twenties (looks amazingly like your stereotypical drug dealer), is fighting with a caucasian woman who is standing next to her almost new Cadillac. He grabs her and wrestles her to the ground. She is screaming incoherently and he is grabbing and hitting her. You again have your licensed concealed carry pistol and plenty of spare ammo. What do you do?

[Urzandowski]

Cool more scenarios!

#1---Stay out of it. Call Police. Been there done that. I went to break up a fight between an man and woman. They both turned on me! I was told to mind my own freakin' business.

#2--- Again... Stay out of it! Call Police. The woman is probably on a Jenny Crank diet and owes the suspicious hispanic guy some pesos.

[Popeye]

It is not my job to go jumping into the feces.

[OFallon]

1. About 8 pm in the multi-story parking garage of a local upscale shopping mall. You have finished shopping and are walking to your car. You see and hear a man and woman arguing, the man hits the woman repeatedly. You cannot make out exactly the words, but it seems quite bitter and threatening. The woman is crying loudly, then she yells "Help!" You are carrying your licensed concealed pistol in accordance with the law. As you get closer, the fight seems to be getting more violent. What do you do?
In every jurisdiction, going to the defense of another is the same as if defending oneself. Reasonable force may be used. In this case, however, it seems that 9-1-1 is the most appropriate action. Stay and monitor the situation to prevent it from becoming a lethal one... but don't hunt trouble.

2. Mid-afternoon in the parking lot (outdoors) of a major shopping mall. You park your car and get out. Three cars away, between you and the mall entrances, a seedy looking Hispanic male, in his mid-twenties (looks amazingly like your stereotypical drug dealer), is fighting with a caucasian woman who is standing next to her almost new Cadillac. He grabs her and wrestles her to the ground. She is screaming incoherently and he is grabbing and hitting her. You again have your licensed concealed carry pistol and plenty of spare ammo. What do you do?
Same as above; however, this situation has already escalated and does not sound much like it could be domestic. Force may already be necessary.

[Rookie_Rover]

1: I guess it is just my nature, but I can't tolerate seeing a man beat a woman (I attribute it to my step-dad). I would first call it in, then walk over, draw, and order them BOTH to the ground, for their safety. Explain that the police have been called, and wait patiently. I would do my best to see if she was bleeding/injured, if so, I'd offer to help her get some medical attention. Since he was the one doing the actual assault, he would remain on the ground until a higher authority had arrived. (For my safety and his). Once police had arrived I'd comply with their orders, then file a statement as to exactly what I saw, who was doing the hitting, and at what point I injected myself into it.

2; Call it in, back out into the main corridor of the lot, roll down and stop just behind her car, get out, draw, and order him off her immediately (using appropriate command voice), if he did, order him to lay on the ground face down. If he doesn't follow my order to get off her, I would most likely lay the butt of my pistol forcefully against his head, or boot push him off her. (Until a weapon is produced by an offender, I would not shoot because they (court system) would hang a murder rap on me) After either, I would level my muzzle to his chest and offer whatever assistance I could to the woman. Wait for police, and then follow the same procedure as #1. (Filing, etc.)

With my luck being what it is, I'd probably get in legal trouble over #2, but most shopping malls have camera surveillance on the lot which would stand to be my witness. But, I'd most likely be arrested for "assault" anyway. In either event, I'd assume that the female would step up to speak on my behalf. If not, since I had not fired my weapon, and I had reason to believe that the victims were in fatal danger, I think I could avoid being charged with anything.

[Nes]

Cool more scenarios!

#1---Stay out of it. Call Police. Been there done that. I went to break up a fight between an man and woman. They both turned on me! I was told to mind my own freakin' business.

#2--- Again... Stay out of it! Call Police. The woman is probably on a Jenny Crank diet and owes the suspicious hispanic guy some pesos.


Had Your #1 happen to me. The lady hit me with a beer bottle.
Off my property I would never pull my gun first. At A mall I would call 911 and mall security. According to just how bad it was, I might step in and pull the guy off of the woman. If just a domastic I would not do that. The only way I would pull my gun off my property would be if a weapon was being used by the perp.

[Adolf H. Bubba]

Cool more scenarios!

#1---Stay out of it. Call Police. Been there done that. I went to break up a fight between an man and woman. They both turned on me! I was told to mind my own freakin' business.

#2--- Again... Stay out of it! Call Police. The woman is probably on a Jenny Crank diet and owes the suspicious hispanic guy some pesos.

A modified plus one. Only if the women were in mortal danger, would I intervene; I'd call the police otherwise.

[Nes]

A modified plus one. Only if the women were in mortal danger, would I intervene; I'd call the police otherwise.


Exactly. Here you could be charged with a felony for pulling your gun. It would just kinda be up to which judge you got.

[Barkley]

In either case call 911. I would try and get them to stop at the same time by telling them I had called 911 and hope they ease up. I also always carry pepper spray for a less than lethal option.

PS: The whole time I would also stay back 10 feet or so to give everybody some space.

[ExSniper]

Some very good answers. If yopu have not answered yet, but would like to then go ahead and answer before you finish this post. I am going to give you the "textbook" answers for these two situations.








1. Call 911, report the incident, from a distance, yell at the couple to break it up because police are on the way. This was a "loving" couple, well known in the community, financally and socially upper class folks, who enjoyed fighting and hitting. They have been "happily" married for over 20 years and he has been repeatedly arrested for his conduct, always released for lack of evidence as she always swears he never laid a finger on her.
I use this example to show students that domestic disputes are a no win situation for outsiders. It is one of the most dangerous things Police have to respond to. She will almost always defend her husband and anyone who tries to step in to help will get hurt or at least threatened.
Should you physically interceed or God forbid, draw your concealed weapon and fire, she will swear in court you attacked them and murdered her meal ticket/husband/scumbag!
Call the cops and be a good witness.


2. The seedy looking hispanic drug-dealer is my niece's husband, at that time a DEA agent, making what proved to be one of his biggest busts ever. The drug dealer was a 30-something, very fashionable, woman who tried to rip him off during the drug transaction and pulled a knife to stab him. His back-up was enroute, but they were necessarily some distance away because of the open area of the deal.
Again, you should stay out of it. Call 911, and while still on the phone yell at them the police are on the way. When he realized someone was there and watching he would have identified himself as a cop, as best he could while struggling with her. Drawing your firearm would probably resulted in multiple bullet wounds as his back-up would assume you were with her.

In Oklahoma, self-defense of another person is limited to spouse, parent, child, employer, or employee. Only those 5 categories of people! It has been de facto extended to other close relatives, roommates, etc, where you can prove a close relationship that would make you privy to their situation. Check your laws.

Carrying a concealed weapon puts lots of added responsibility on your shoulders. You are not a Good Samaritan, a Vigilante, or a freelance cop just because you strap on a gun. I know it tears at every fiber of our being for most of us to see any man hit any woman for any reason! And it really is true that some scumbags deserve to be shot! But, we need to know local laws and we need to intervene with minimum involvement possible. Yelling at a criminal who is commiting an offense will often scare them off. They do not want witnesses, so it is easier to leave and find an easier target. Anyone carrying a concealed weapon should always have their cellphone (speed dial 1 is 911 on my cell).

Bottom line: use your firearm only as a last resort when you are sure that you or someone close to you is in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm. Anytime you introduce a firearm into a situation, you have escalated it to a deadly force situation. Be like Davy Crockett: "Make sure you are right, then go ahead!"

Hope these stimulate some thought on possible situations we might encounter.

[IamRose]

I think, in both cases, I would call 911, then have my gun in hand, but out of sight, as I let the folks know that help has been called.
With my gun in hand, if the bg turns his threat on me, I have a jump on him.

Am I too simplistic?

[IamRose]

Oh. Well, I guess I was kinda right?

[ExSniper]

Rose you were exactly right. Call the cops and wait to be a good witness.
Women usually react this way and it is a good thing. Men try to rush in and macho gets them killed!

[IamRose]

I'm about as macho as a marshmallow!

[ExSniper]

In my classes, about 90% of the men answer that they would intervene, usually just physically, not using their weapon unless he produces a weapon. Less than 33% of the women say they would intervene, usually saying they would call police. I guess it is the idea of a woman trying to stop a man who is already hitting a woman.
Call the police and make sure they know they are getting plenty of attention, lots of witnesses (one student said they would video it on his cellphone), and cops are on the way.

[IamRose]

Video is a good idea.


And I'm a duuufus

[Fuelburns1]

Watching a man attack a woman and not putting a stop to it goes against everything I believe in. My CPL class went over these scenarios so I know the ideal answers but it would be one of the most difficult things for me not to stop it.

[ExSniper]

Watching a man attack a woman and not putting a stop to it goes against everything I believe in. My CPL class went over these scenarios so I know the ideal answers but it would be one of the most difficult things for me not to stop it.

I agree, but the sad truth is she is allowing this to happen. Getting involved beyond calling the cops and yelling at the couple is too dangerous!
I am all for slow, painful capital punishment for wife-beaters!

[Rookie_Rover]

The only problem is that the solution seems to lean towards a big town, lol. Down here in Podunk, TN, by the time the police get there, if she is getting beat on pretty good she'll be dead and he'll be gone before they ever show up (providing that it is a regular guy beating her and not a cop...) Last night I was forced to call the police due to a theft here, and it took 26 minutes from the time I placed the call to the time when the officer arrived.

In a big town, you're maybe two minutes from a cop at any given time. Out here where the po' folks live, you're on your own. While to some the answer rings clear "just move to the city", I'd rather live in the country and know I'm on my own than to live in the city and be on my own against more serious stuff!

The saddest part is, I'm only a 10 minute drive from the PD, yet it takes them usually more than 20 to arrive. I've faced the fact that if I'm ever faced with an attacker, I'm going to have to deal with it on my own, because if the attacker has any intentions of seriously hurting me or someone I love, I'll be dead as a rock long before to law shows up.

[ExSniper]

I understand your point about rural areas. I would prefer to live in the country too. The answer is still the same. Call the cops, yell at the couple that the cops are on the way! Hopefully, even a cretin will understand that he is about to get arrested and will stop beating her and leave (probably take her home and continue beating her!). Police response time usually is quicker when you tell them it is a violent assault than it is when responding to a theft or other crime that is already finished.

When I lived in a small town, I went to church with a lady whose husband slapped her around pretty regular. I could not convince her to leave him or to call the cops, so one night I sat down with him and told him: "I gave your wife and kids my cell phone number and told them to call me the next time you got rowdy. If they ever call, me and several of my larger friends are coming over to beat the snot out of you. No questions asked!" Once he understood he was going to get hurt it seemed to help quite a bit. I know that won't always work but it did in this case!