[will46]

I am trying to learn to shoot a rifle accurately. I have a rifle that will evidently shoot pretty well (see another thread here). At 100 yards, wind matters, but not a heck of a lot if you can stay out of hurricanes. I can wait out the wind, until it is blowing about the same for each shot. I want to move out in distance to 250 yards, and I know the wind will be a big deal.

So here's my plan. I figure I need to learn to quantify wind speed. I figure "blowin' a little", "blowin' a lot", "blowin' a heck of a lot" won't cut it if I want long shots to go to the same place. I also figure you hunters, especially in the Midwest, have figured this out long ago. What do you guys do? Do you check leaves, grass, etc? Does anybody use these handheld wind speed meters I see advertised? How about direction? How do you figure that?

I am a scientific type, I can use external ballistics software to figure bullet path, but I need some practical advice to figure the right input. Or should I just bag the numbers and go shoot until I learn how to do it? Bear in mind I'm old and don't want to die waiting to learn this. I'm in a hurry

By the way, just hold the smart remarks about this thread. It is not titled "Smelling the wind" or "Breaking the wind".:lol:

[ExSniper]

Good artticle from Sniper Country

Wind Effects

This is a big one. You must understand wind effects to shoot well. Formulas abound for this, but as we'll see, exact calculations are of little use. There is no substitute for practice. For our purposes we will refer to wind direction using the clock method. 12:00 is straight in the face, 6:00 is on the back of the head. Vertical deflection of bullets is very slight, at most a few inches at long ranges with 20+ winds. We will ignore head & tail winds (HTW) in this discussion. You will have to find the right place to hold, or adjust your sights slightly, for this component. If we discount HTW, then the wind effect of a 2:00 wind is the same as a 4:00, 8:00, and 10:00. Thus we only need to remember wind adjustments for 1,2, and 3:00. To be exact, you could calculate wind using 2:15, 1:48, etc. Those of you who are sailors know that wind is constantly shifting. Anywhere you are shooting, the wind at the target will always be different than the wind where you are shooting from. It changes all the way to the target. It may be 2mph where you are, 7mph halfway down range (from a slightly different direction), and 5mph at the target (from a slightly different direction). Usually the wind clocks or veers. Over a period of 10 minutes lets say, the wind will be 7mph for 3 min., then clock 5 degrees to the right for 5 minutes, then veer back to the left 5 degrees. Frequently there will be a brief lull in the wind, then it will reappear from the new direction. Aviators know this too. The wind swirls across the earth in large systems, each made up by an almost infinite number of microsystems. When on the water, you can see "wind lines". They look like areas of the water that have ripples. On big grassy fields you can see this too.
In the morning, when the sun comes up, the air and ground begins to warm. As the ground warms, convection currents form cause air to move uphill. The western slope of a hill will have stronger currents than the eastern slope.
In the evening, the opposite occurs. If you are near the water, the land - sea heat differential effect also occurs. Warm air rises over the ground and is replaced by cooler air over the water. This is known as an offshore breeze and occurs mid-morning. As the ground cools in late afternoon, the reverse occurs, although not as strong. After the sun has gone down is when the onshore breeze gets stronger. During the day, late morning - through afternoon, you are in the doldrums where nothing much is happening (minus the presence of a system). A shooter must study these winds as they swirl along the ground.
Shooters cannot see ripples in the water, they must look for other signs.
Mirage's move with the wind just like grass does. When shooting across flat ground you can see the shimmer of the heat rising off the ground. If the shimmer is straight up, there is less than 2mph wind. The mirage will lean away from the wind up until about 20mph when it disappears almost completely. Watch trees and grass. With a 2-4mph breeze the grass will move and you will see the eddies of air moving the ground. Fields are excellent places to read the wind because you can see the air currents. The leaves will also shimmer and and small limbs will move. 5-9mph and the grass starts to lean pretty well. Smaller limbs on the trees are moving constantly and thicker limbs barely move. 10-14mph and the thicker limbs are moving and the grass is being pushed strongly during the stronger gusts. 15-20mph and the trees are swaying and the grass is in constant motion.
Be aware that trees block the wind on fields. The windward side of the field will not have as much air as the leeward because the trees are blocking it. As you look across the field you will be able to see the stronger air moving at the center and leeward sides. (Pronounced "looward"). Now that you understand a bit about reading wind, you can see why complex calculations are fruitless. You must average these effects, always giving more credence to wind that is closer to the target (where the bullet is moving slower). Only with practice will you become good at this. For target shooters, those who can read wind well will always outshoot those who can't, all other things being equal. Wind has a dramatic effect on long range shots.
Recall that I said we would only consider winds from 1, 2, and 3. Look at a ballistics table for your bullet and use these factors to determine crosswind. (Or use JBM's) If your bullet moves 36" inches at some range with a 3 or 9 wind, then it will move about 18" with winds at 1,5,7, or 11. You only need to remember wind effects for your bullet at each range where wind is an issue. Then remember two other numbers -- 50% and 90%, 1/2 and "almost all of it". Now look downrange and average it all out, come up with your number, and shoot. If you have time, figure windage for lulls and strong winds both. If you can't get your shot off in a lull, you'll have to adjust, but you'll know how much.

http://www.snipercountry.com/mark2.htm

[will46]

Thanks, ExSniper, great article, and the sniper country web site is outstanding!

[Fuelburns1]

Part two of this 1942 Army training video covers windage. I recommend watching part one as well for your edification and enjoyment.

http://www.archive.org/details/Rifle_Marksmanship_with_M1_Rifle_Part_1

[Antlurz]

For me, it's just gut feelings, mostly. Like the artlcle says, you can't nail it down. You can only take your best shot at it, so to speak.

Here's a hint that could help you in the long run. Sometimes, the air may be mostly dead calm where you are, but blowing like the end of the world 250 yards downrange. There is one thing that a lot of guys never consider, and thinking a bit about it may help put the bullet where it goes. Try to picture two different scenarios. In the first, the wind is blowing right smart where you are, and for a few yards down range, but then, from there on out, it appears there is little to no wind blowing at all.

Now in the next scenario, the wind pattern is exactly opposite. Dead calm where you are, but starting out there maybe 200 yards, there is a mini cyclone.

The advice above is good, but it doesn't go quite far enough if you are in a situation where there is a lot of variance. Maybe there is a line of dense trees along the side of the bullets path except for where the strong winds are.


Say it's calm on one end, and 20mph on the other. Simply averaging it out to a ten mph crosswind may not work very well and here's why. If the wind blows the bullet off path, say two degrees, (2MOA) it will continue along it's new path unless something changes it again, right?

Now suppose the bullet hits a cross wind the minute it leaves the barrel. That means the error is going to get bigger the farther it goes until at 250 yards away, it's a long way from where it was intended. You gitcherself a 5 inch miss if all else is equal.

So far, so good.

Now, lets reverse the scenario. The bullet leaves the gun and travels happily along till it hits the 200 yards away wind, and once again, the bullet is deflected 2MOA. The difference is, this time, the bullet has only 50 yards more to go, and the same 2MOA deflection will only be 1 inch total, all else being equal.

I personally feel this is the single biggest point of concern when trying to dope the wind.

Ron

[rickrem700]

If you are talking true persision, you will want to get a wind metter, but 250 yards is'nt really long range, most true long range rifle rounds Zero at 200 yards, your just getting started, even on a windy day your bullet is not going to be off alot at 250 yards not enough to miss a full size deer that you would have normaly hit with out the wind, there are windage and elevation charts for darn near every round known to man that will give you an idea where your bullet is going to be at said distance with wind and bullet weight, there is so many factors in long range shooting that most people don't have the patience for it, you have to have a true love for math and probability to really get into it. A perfect round for the kind of distance you are talking about, what I call my 300 yard perimiter rifle is the Winchester .243 with 90-100 grain bullets (BALLISTIC AMMO) you will not have to figure out to much windage for this round, under normal sircumstances, That being said every rifle in every cal you pick up is going to shoot differant in wind, There are just to many variables.

[maxiball]

I never did much shooting past 200 yards and then only at a shooting range.
I live and hunt in N.E. Ohio where we are retricted to shotguns with slugs, certain handguns and muzzle loaders.
A long shot around here is 100 yards.
150 yards is bragging material and any further puts you in the realm of a living legend or the biggest blow hard.
Or both.
:D
Did I ever tell ya about the shot I made on a running deer at 175 yards and hit the thing in the head? With a smooth bore 12 ga. slug?:lool: :lool: :lool:

Oh, back to your question.
You've already gotten great advise. I would find a place to shoot at the furtherest distance you think you want to make on a game animal.
Set up a wind flag at that distance and one at 25 or 50 yards.
Often the wind will blow differently at the different distances.
Use a large target and learn by shooting.
Experience here is going to be the best teacher.
One afternoon at the range is worth a week of reading I'd think.
Caliber and bullet design is going to be very important.
If I thought I were going to shoot past 200 yards I think I'd want something along the lines of a 30-06, .300 mag, 7mm mag and so forth.
What are you shooting?

[wadcutter]

The only thing I shoot where wind is a factor are prairie dogs. I'm not a target shooter. I think in terms of holding by the width of standing prairie dogs. If the wind is kicking up on the prairie as it always does in the afternoons, I'll hold two or three praire dog widths to one side or the other. If it gets really nasty I only shoot at sitting prairie dogs where I have more horizontal body width to work with. Two years ago I was shooting in South Dakota in gale force winds. It was blowing 35 miles an hour with NO let up. I was using a 22-250 and doing ok out to 250 yards but beyond that it was about impossible. That's when the 6mms come out.


John

[will46]

Part two of this 1942 Army training video covers windage. I recommend watching part one as well for your edification and enjoyment.

http://www.archive.org/details/Rifle_Marksmanship_with_M1_Rifle_Part_1

I will be darned. That is a pretty high quality piece of video. If I ever have to train any youngsters, I'm going to use it. Thanks.

[will46]

For me, it's just gut feelings, mostly. Like the artlcle says, you can't nail it down. You can only take your best shot at it, so to speak.

Here's a hint that could help you in the long run. Sometimes, the air may be mostly dead calm where you are, but blowing like the end of the world 250 yards downrange. There is one thing that a lot of guys never consider, and thinking a bit about it may help put the bullet where it goes. Try to picture two different scenarios. In the first, the wind is blowing right smart where you are, and for a few yards down range, but then, from there on out, it appears there is little to no wind blowing at all.

Now in the next scenario, the wind pattern is exactly opposite. Dead calm where you are, but starting out there maybe 200 yards, there is a mini cyclone.

The advice above is good, but it doesn't go quite far enough if you are in a situation where there is a lot of variance. Maybe there is a line of dense trees along the side of the bullets path except for where the strong winds are.


Say it's calm on one end, and 20mph on the other. Simply averaging it out to a ten mph crosswind may not work very well and here's why. If the wind blows the bullet off path, say two degrees, (2MOA) it will continue along it's new path unless something changes it again, right?

Now suppose the bullet hits a cross wind the minute it leaves the barrel. That means the error is going to get bigger the farther it goes until at 250 yards away, it's a long way from where it was intended. You gitcherself a 5 inch miss if all else is equal.

So far, so good.

Now, lets reverse the scenario. The bullet leaves the gun and travels happily along till it hits the 200 yards away wind, and once again, the bullet is deflected 2MOA. The difference is, this time, the bullet has only 50 yards more to go, and the same 2MOA deflection will only be 1 inch total, all else being equal.

I personally feel this is the single biggest point of concern when trying to dope the wind.

Ron

Thanks, Ron. That is real food for thought. I can't wait to go shooting and check this out. What this says to me is that wind deflects the ANGLE of the bullet path, away from the original line of sight. That is, the wind deflects the nose of the bullet so that it is traveling on a new heading, at an angle to the original line of sight.

I would have guessed differently. I'd have guessed that the wind would just deflect the bullet parallel to its line of flight without changing its heading. If that was true, if the wind blew it two inches off course in the first part of the path and then stopped blowing, the bullet would just continue on and strike two inches off target no matter how far away the target was. I wish I could draw a sketch on here to show what has me confused.

Goes to prove guessing won't cut it. Need to go shooting.

[will46]

Oh, back to your question.
You've already gotten great advise. I would find a place to shoot at the furtherest distance you think you want to make on a game animal.
Set up a wind flag at that distance and one at 25 or 50 yards.
Often the wind will blow differently at the different distances.
Use a large target and learn by shooting.
Experience here is going to be the best teacher.
One afternoon at the range is worth a week of reading I'd think.
Caliber and bullet design is going to be very important.
If I thought I were going to shoot past 200 yards I think I'd want something along the lines of a 30-06, .300 mag, 7mm mag and so forth.
What are you shooting?

I agree about the great advice. This forum never fails.

I am not a hunter any more. Too many other commitments. Maybe when I finally retire. For now, I have just gotten bit by a bug, I think. I like to punch little holes in paper targets. It is unbelievable how much fun I am having just seeing how close together I can make the little holes. Every trip to the range the groups are getting a little smaller and I am just purely hooked. Do I need therapy? My wife thinks I have lost my mind. Again.

The rifle is a DPMS AR-10 clone called the LR-308, in .308 Win. It's a heavy 24" barrel, weighs about 10 pounds, so for hunting it would need a new upper anyway. Dang thing shoots well, and has been 100% reliable.

Your idea of setting wind flags up at intervals to the target sounds real good. Think I'll try that. Otherwise I'll just be guessing at speed and direction, and I'll never really learn anything. That's about a month away. First I need to make sure my shooting technique is solid. Better go watch those 1942 training films Fuelburns sent. Wonder if they have the one on venereal diseases.

[ExSniper]

http://www.snipersparadise.com/Field_Manuals/fm23_10all.pdf

FM 23-10 gives you a lot of info on windage including wind tables for the .308 cartridge.

[will46]

http://www.snipersparadise.com/Field_Manuals/fm23_10all.pdf

FM 23-10 gives you a lot of info on windage including wind tables for the .308 cartridge.

Excellent, thanks. The manual says the same things you guys are saying, start with the tables and charts, but go shoot til you get it. Can't wait to get started.