[Stophel]

Well, I took a look at my gun just a while ago and took out that ridiculous little hammer lock.

The S&W Model 22-4. Mine is the "Thunder Ranch" gun, but this is now a regular production item. Absolutely no difference between mine and the current model except for the "TR" serial number (which doesn't matter to me a bit) and the grip panels that come on the gun (which were quickly replaced).

My little Photo essay:

Here's the gun with the sideplate off. You can immediately see the way everything is made now. All the parts are investment cast. Probably not one single part is interchangeable with the older Smiths. I suppose it's all fine, and considering how all the other makers do things, this is still better than most. But from the position of someone who is familiar with the classic all-forged-precisely-machined Smith and Wessons of the past, it's just kind of sad.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Pistols/LockRemoval/Lock1.jpg


Now, with the hammer removed you can see the lock mechanism. All these parts are absolutely MINISCULE. The key tumbler portion of the device is a simple spring loaded detent/cam. When you turn the key, it flips the lock up or down. On the lock itself, there is a lug which rides in a groove in the hammer. With the lock up, the lug fits into a notch in the hammer, blocking it from moving.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Pistols/LockRemoval/Lock2.jpg



Now, I CAN SEE how this pissant little doo dad COULD lock up the gun during firing. As you can see below (or maybe not...) the spring that tensions the lock in position is easily the smallest spring I have ever seen in my life. When the hammer is in motion, and the notch is in the right position over the lug, the lock has the capacity to move on its own. The key cam just actuates the lock, it doesn't hold it in place. I didn't get a shot of the lock "on", but all that happens is that the lug on the rear of the key tumbler picks up the front end of the lock. The spring tension on the key tumbler will hold it up, BUT, with the key tumbler in the "off" position, there is really nothing holding the lock in place but imagination. That tiny spring is virtually non-existant.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Pistols/LockRemoval/Lock3.jpg


The lock itself simply lifts out of the frame with a little jiggle. Now, unless you want to go and plug the holes in the frame, you can STOP HERE. You can leave the little key tumbler in place. It won't go anywhere with the lock removed.

I took it off...

The key tumbler is just acted upon by a fork-shaped detent thingy that has a spring at it's front. Pick the spring out at the front, push the fork all the way forward, and you can push/pull the key tumbler right out.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Pistols/LockRemoval/Lock4.jpg

After removal, you're left with a hole in the frame, and a slot beside the hammer. The slot is not so offensive, but the hole is, which is why I say leave the tumbler in unless you want to peg the hole. Now, I went to put the tumbler back in and started to put the tiny little spring back on the front of the fork and "ting", off she went. Now, since Roy Underhill is a neat freak compared to me, there's no way on earth I'm ever going to find this infinitessimal little spring on the floor of my shop. So I'm committed. Oh, I got a big box full of springs, and some of them are surely small enough to use here, but I didn't want to go diggin' through it...:bignono:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Pistols/LockRemoval/Lock5.jpg

Now, if you're worried about warranty stuff, again, just leave the key tumbler in. The lock is gone, the gun is reliable, and should something go wrong with it, you can send it to S&W for warranty repair. If you're like me, and can't leave anything alone, you'll want to fill the holes 'cause they're ugly.

If you have a Stainless Steel gun, this will be SOOO much easier for you than it will be for me. No blueing to worry about. A flat bit of metal can be lead/tin or even tix soldered in the slot to fill it, dress it down and the slot is invisible. For the hole in the frame, the simplest thing to do might be to just thread the hole and put in a screw in from the inside. The tip of the screw will show outside, but it will look like it's supposed to be there. I will probably end up doing this but going all the way and counterbore it and peen it over and file it down so you can't see it...maybe.

I'll keep a photo log of whatever I end up doing with it for your edification. :up:

And I know, I really hate when the page is wider than the screen, and you have to keep sliding the page left and right to read, but I wanted to leave the photos full size so that all the detail was retained. Sorry.

[Grit]

Thanks for that! All that sounds doable, except for maybe the hole in the frame. :( What tools did you use to get it apart?

G.

[Stophel]

Tools? A properly fitted screwdriver to take off the sideplate, a nylon drift to drive the sideplate off, my fingers to remove the hammer and the lock, and the tip of a screwdriver and a small pin punch to take off the key tumbler fork/detent spring.

Things don't get complicated in a Smith and Wesson until you go to taking the rebound slide off. I had always just used a screwdriver to try to hold the spring down while wiggling the slide out, thinking all the time "there must be a better tool to do this with". Then, recently, I was watching one of the shooting shows on the Outdoor channel, and they were at Smith and Wesson, and talking to one of the gun assemblers/gunsmiths (I think they were in the Performance center doing custom work on a gun...) who was taking out the rebound slide. What was he using? A screwdriver.

Like I said, you can leave the key tumbler in the frame, it is totally inert by itself and cannot come out. So, it will look no worse than it did to begin with. ;)

[Grit]

Stophel, thanks. If I ever decide to do something like that I'll refer back to this thread as a guide.

Thanks,

G.

P.S. Oh, by the way, what's a nylon drift?

[Stophel]

Just a white nylon thing, about 3/8 inch in diameter and about 4 inches long. I got a pack of them from Brownell's. They're made for doing this kind of thing...beating on stuff without marring it. You can use a stick of wood, piece of dowel rod, or something, or you can just pry the sideplate out with a screwdriver...which you aren't supposed to do.

[Grit]

Just a white nylon thing, about 3/8 inch in diameter and about 4 inches long. I got a pack of them from Brownell's. They're made for doing this kind of thing...beating on stuff without marring it. You can use a stick of wood, piece of dowel rod, or something, or you can just pry the sideplate out with a screwdriver...which you aren't supposed to do.

Understood. Thanks again. :up:

G.

[StrawHat]

Here's the gun with the sideplate off. You can immediately see the way everything is made now. All the parts are investment cast.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Pistols/LockRemoval/Lock1.jpg


Sorry.
A long time ago I took the S&W armorers school.

Up until these photos were posted I had no idea what you'll were talking abut when saying MIM and investment cast parts. I knew what IC parts where but did not know how it applied to S&W revolvers.

Not sure I recognize anything in there.

I believe I will now go and cry myself to sleep and hope I don't have nightmares.

[Popeye]

A good tutorial. Thanks.

[demented]

I learned about Smith's love affair with MIM parts the hard way. My 4566 needed a new de-cock lever, they suggested I send it in. To my dismay, they removed all my old forged parts and stuck their junk in place. My complaints fell on deaf ears.

[opsboss]

I believe I will now go and cry myself to sleep and hope I don't have nightmares.
I guess I must have some kind of "complacency disorder."

I have half a dozen S&Ws that, except for some grips here and there, are all unmolested and exactly as they came from the factory. (Yes, including a couple with locks.)

They all work just fine. And I sleep just fine.

Best, Ops

[Stophel]

Hey, I've been "stickied"! :)

The parts are investment cast or injection moulded, one or the other, I don't know.

It's all the same basic design, just entirely new parts. I put the sideplate back on, so I can't see what 's inside. Out of sight, out of mind....

It's all OK, I guess, but sure ain't what it used to be, but then, nothing is.

I never had function problems with the lock, but my gun is pretty new. Like I said, I can see how it COULD be a problem, particularly when firing double action very quickly, with the lock bouncing around in there. That little spring that holds it down ain't very strong, and it's quite easy to push up with your finger. It's easy to remove, so...

[Sir Knight]

The step by step diagrams makes this very useful information and deserves to be stuck. Thank you for sharing.

[wadcutter]

I have an alloy J-frame that on ocassion would engage the lock when firing CorBon +P ammo. It was some pretty stout ammo. I took care of that with my dremel and ground the little nub off the tumbler.

[CA357]

Popeye says I can't have a Dremel yet. :D

[Popeye]

I am of the belief that a moto-tool is one of the worst implements a home gunsmith can own. It does things too fast and too much.

My Fordam is gathering dust.

[Stophel]

I thought about just grinding off the lug, but if you're worried about warranty stuff (which I'm not), you can just take it out, and if you need to send it in for work, just put the part back on.

I have a Dremel tool, and wouldn't want to do without it, but there's a very limited number of things I do with it.

Now that I'm seeing more actual reports of the lock locking when it isn't supposed to lock, I feel glad I did take the thing out.

I'll see about getting the holes filled this weekend maybe.

[Wuchak]

What about just putting a little JB Weld into the lock slot in the hammer so it's not possible for the lock to engage?

[wadcutter]

Popeye says I can't have a Dremel yet. :D


Like discovering the unexpected side effects of the blood flow medication Viagra, the awesome power of the Dremel to the kitchen table gunsmith is responsible for more then one sheepish customer telling a woefull tale of "true confessions" to his local gunsmith.

When the lightbulp starts to glow as you become inspired by the thought, "I could do that", it's best to listen to the little man in your head telling you to walk away! Been there, done that! :D

John

[Stophel]

All right, check this out.

I decided to go whole hog and fill that ugly hole. So, I did. I didn't really take any photos while doing it (other than one). It's kinda hard to stop in the middle of something to take a picture.

First, I drilled the hole out with a #3 bit and tapped it for a 1/4-28 screw. then, I counterbored the outside just a little so that I could get the unthreaded shank of the screw to draw up tight into the frame.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Pistols/LockRemoval/Tapping.jpg

Then, I got a 1/4-28 screw (in this case, an unused flintlock top jaw screw), cleaned it up, annealed it, oiled the threads, and screwed it in pretty durn tight. Then, I sawed the excess off the outside, leaving about 1/32" of screw shank sticking out the side of the frame. I left the length of the screw inside alone, in order for me to be able to put the tip of the screw on the vise while I peened the outside of the screw down to make sure it fully filled the hole with no gaps showing on the outside (I do this kind of thing all the time to fill holes in flintlock lock plates so that I can reposition parts where I think they should be or to use different parts that I like better). After that, I still had the excess length sticking through the inside. I had to CAREFULLY cut it off with a cutoff wheel in my Dremel tool. One slip, and I was screwed. Fortunately, my hand was guided safely through to the end. I peened the inside some to make durn sure it was all locked in place, and then filed inside and outside down flush.

I knew I was going to have to have the gun reblued anyway, so, I decided to go ahead and file away the ugly moulded-in lug on the left side of the frame and make it look more like the stud that we're all familiar with. Nothing technically difficult about it, it's just lots of filing. And filing, and filing. Got it shaped up the way I wanted it and then I had to file and polish that side of the frame. So, I filed it down with some fine Swiss files and then started sanding, and sanding, and sanding, with emery cloth, 320, then 600, then I rubbed it down with a pad and rottenstone, and that was all the polishing I wanted to do.

Now, I just have Oxpho blue on it right now, and it should be properly reblued (by the way, who do you all recommend to reblue this for me?).

Here it is.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Pistols/LockRemoval/Done1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Pistols/LockRemoval/Done2.jpg

The peg is NEARLY invisible. You can see a ring around the peg. I suppose what happens is that the steel around it compresses, and you will always see an ever-so-slightly lighter color ring, but it ain't bad at all.

I'm not sure what I want to do with the lock slot beside the hammer. I could easily solder in a slip of steel there and fit it down, but after it's blued, you will be able to see the silver line around the insert. I think I'll just grind the lug off the lock, put it back in, and JB Weld that sucker in place. ;)

[Popeye]

Good work

[wadcutter]

Great work! :up:

[budroe]

Great job. Thanks for the info and the excellent photos. That is a nice looking S&W!!!

[Sir Knight]

Can you show pics of what tools you needed to accomplished the lock removal. I want to see what I have that is close to it and what I will need before taking everything apart.

[Grit]

Can you show pics of what tools you needed to accomplished the lock removal. I want to see what I have that is close to it and what I will need before taking everything apart.

Good idea. :up: I'll start making my list. :D

G.

[Stophel]

To remove the lock ALL you need to do is use a properly sized screwdriver (you all do have gun screwdrivers, don't you?) to take out the sideplate screws. Remove the sideplate by tapping it out with a nylon drift or a wood dowel rod or something. The Hammer block will fall out, because it rides in a groove in the sideplate.

Remove the mainspring by turning out the tension screw in the grip, and the spring comes loose and you simply lift it out of the frame. Now, to remove the hammer, pull on the trigger just a little bit to disengage sear contact, and at the same time, pull back on the cylinder latch so that the hammer block that is on the cylinder latch is out of the way of the hammer. The hammer will lift right off the pin. There is a stirrup at the rear of the hammer that the mainspring hooks on. The stirrup just hooks into the hammer. It can be put back on backwards, but it will be hanging down in the wrong direction, and won't even go back into the frame, so just turn it around.

You can probably just take the lock right out now, but you might have to remove the cylinder latch. To do so, simply take out the screw of the thumbpiece, and work the latch out of the frame by pressing it all the way to the rear and lifting the front end out. Remember, there's a spring there, don't lose it.

The lock is right there and all you have to do to remove it is lift it out and maybe give it a little bit of a wiggle. It pivots on a pin that is just slipped into the frame, and the TINY spring has a leg that hooks in a little slot in the frame. All that really holds it in the frame is the hammer, so it comes right out. There you go, that's it. You can just leave the key tumbler where it is, it won't go anywhere nor interfere with anything. Just reassemble the gun in the reverse order.

Replacing the hammer block may give you some difficulties, especially if you're not familiar with the workings of S&W Revolvers. Lay it down on top of the hammer and rebound slide, and the slot in the bottom end of the hammer block goes onto a pin on the rebound slide. Now, it will take a little flanagling to get it all aligned and in place in the sideplate, and when everything is kopacetic, tap the sideplate on with the plastic butt of a screwdriver or something. If it doesn't go down, something isn't aligned properly, so try again.

I've been fiddling around with S&W revolvers since I was probably a teen ager, so I'm used to how everything goes together. These new ones work EXACTLY the same way the old ones do....it's just that the parts all look different. Lots of slip-together/hook-together parts where they used to be pinned. There is an odd sliding thingy that rides in a vertical groove in the side of the frame that goes up and down as the trigger is cycled...I still have no idea what that is supposed to do.

Oh, yes, I also learned that the firing pin in the frame (what's it doing there?) is held in with a pin that, in turn, is held in by the sideplate. It CAN fall out and then the firing pin will fall out...fortunately, I found them.;)

Again, the only tools necessary are a good screwdriver and some kind of doo dad to safely knock the sideplate off without marring it.

Also, you do NOT need to do all that I did just to remove the lock. Just take out the lock, put the gun back together, and you're done.

[wadcutter]

Smith has taken some steps backwards in the production of revolvers these days. I miss the hammer mounted firing pins, old stye latches, wood stocks and the assortment of K-frame models including the model 13 and model 66. Used Smiths are out there to be found, but they have been climbing up in price lately.

Their lock system is pretty much an abortion of a design, useless and destroys the lines of an otherwise aesthetically pleasing classic handgun. Ever notice that they always show the right side of their revolvers in their catalogues and magazines? It's not going to go away anytime soon and it's relatively easy to disable if you so desire.

John

[PreserveFreedom]

I own two S&W revolvers. One is a 586 and the other is a Model 10-5. They were made before the internal lock was injected in. Now, while I have heard of the internal lock and I heard it was stupid, there is one thing I did not know of until I saw these pictures. When did they go and file the firing pin off of the hammer???

I miss the hammer mounted firing pins...
Dang...I didn't see wadcutter's post til after I typed all that out. But still, when did it happen and more importantly - WHY?

[Stophel]

I'm sure it was deemed to be "safer"...even though I'm sure that the hammer mounted pin has NEVER caused an accidental misfire. It's a good solid, rebounding action, so the pin on the hammer is no problem.

Also, I would imagine it was done to further simplify manufacture. The .22's had frame mounted firing pins already. They probably started doing them all this way to make it easier....more parts interchange.

[StrawHat]

Dang...I didn't see wadcutter's post til after I typed all that out. But still, when did it happen and more importantly - WHY?

Suprised one of the pistolsmiths did not answer this one.

The frame mounted firing pin allows the use of higher pressure cartridges in the revolver.

One of the reasons M53 (22 Jet) revolver are hard to fimd is that a lot of them were used as platform for other cartridges because of the frame mounted pin.

Whether or not this is what S&W had or has in mind is anyones guess.

[glh630]

Hey Popeye : CA357 says that's not the only thing that collects dust--I can sympathize. :p) Sir Knight is right that deserves to be Stickied. I just leave mine all unlocked, except when I leave the home for a few days then I lock them all. It's not hard to find a key for them--just makes for more hassle for someone who might break in and in the police report I can state that I had locked them. CYA!!!!!!!

[glh630]

Hey Popeye : CA357 says that's not the only thing that collects dust--I can sympathize. :p) Sir Knight is right that deserves to be Stickied. I just leave mine all unlocked, except when I leave the home for a few days then I lock them all. It's not hard to find a key for them--just makes for more hassle for someone who might break in and in the police report I can state that I had locked them. CYA!!!!!!!

hey Sir Knight or anyone: sorry for the multi posts, my finger stuttered on the enter key. how do I get rid of the xtra......?

[siberian]

Hi everyone: I have 2 smiths. One a model 19 and the other a K22 Masterpiece. Now both are old guns but to remove the side plates after removing the screws, you just rap the grip with something padded if you have not removed the stocks or piece of wood on the metal frame with the stocks removed. How are the new Smiths different that you must pry the side plate off?

[lookingforthewayback]

Are people still experiencing problems with the locks?

[Popeye]

Hi everyone: I have 2 smiths. One a model 19 and the other a K22 Masterpiece. Now both are old guns but to remove the side plates after removing the screws, you just rap the grip with something padded if you have not removed the stocks or piece of wood on the metal frame with the stocks removed. How are the new Smiths different that you must pry the side plate off?

That is the proper way to remove the sideplate. Prying will dimple the upper sideplate protrusion. The new Smiths are not different in this aspect.

[walkerhat]

hai i have the latest models of guns


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[budroe]

FWIW: there's a guy over on the Smith-Wesson forum that has designed a piece that sits in the hollow left when you remove the lock. it has a small projecting rod that exactly fills the keyhole. There are several detailed photos of the unit on the forum, and it does do an amazing job of filling the space where the keyhole existed. If I owned a new S&W, I'd order one from him. I think they go for $20 or $25.00 each.

[Williamlayton]

I have in front of me my PD lite and was conjuring up much the same thoughts.
If I were to do it, cover the hole after removing the lock, I would have made a new, oversized cylinder release.
That would work.
Blessings

[dal357]

I can tell you from experience that a older style latch release will only cover the hole just a bit more then the newer style one.
I once saw a over size thumb release advertised on a web site that was made bigger for just this application , but have lost the URL and haven't been able to find it since.
the plug that is offered on the S&W forum seems to work well from what i have seen.
:):):):):):):)

[dal357]

I saw a over size cylinder release on a web site for sale about a year back but can not find it again.
the plug mentioned works good and can be dresses down to where it hardly shows
:):):):):):):):)