30-30 vs .35 Remington


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Oriondk
01-31-2009, 07:37 PM
Couple of questions for you guys. I am eventually going to get a lever-gun. I've been torn between getting a .45-70 or a smaller caliber. I know some of you guys like the .35 Remington. On comparing the ballistics and energy of the 30-30 and the .35, I don't see any advantage to the .35 over the 30-30 other than being able to shoot a 200 grn. in the .35 compared to a 170 grn. in the 30-30. So why the .35? Deer guns, right? Doesn't a 30-30 do just as good a job?

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Barkley
01-31-2009, 08:01 PM
Yep the 30-30 is just as good a deer gun as the 35. I personally have a 35 because of that 200 grain slug it can shoot. I still plan on going after hogs down at my brothers one day. I want that 200 grain bullet. Hogs are darn tuff critters. There have been a couple times when shooting a deer the only good shot was through the shoulder. I didn't hesitate, although that shoulder wasn't even good for hamburger afterwards.

BigBlue
01-31-2009, 08:52 PM
I have always heard that the 30-30 gave you a bit more range and the .35 gave a bit more close range energy. Looking at ballistic charts, it doesn't appear that there is much difference and very little advantage to the .35, if any at all. Well however strange it may sound, the .35 Rem. is one of those cartridges that just plain drops critters way out of proportion to what the ballistic charts would tell you. I think the same can be said for the 45/70.
Don

bluedlightning
01-31-2009, 10:43 PM
I would go with the 35 Remington. Its punches a bigger hole, uses a heavier bullet, and more shock upon hitting then the 30-30 does. You allso got a wider choice of firearms to use with it. Semi auto, pump, lever, and bolt. The only advandage the 30-30 has is easier to find ammo.

Popeye
02-01-2009, 12:20 AM
I own both and use both. .35 Remington ammunition availability is problematic. .30-30 ammunition is for sale everywhere. Inside of 125 -150 yards both will do the job.

Mr T
02-02-2009, 09:51 AM
The .30-30 for everything including defense. In my part of Mo. you really don't need more gun. Scope out the ballistics on Steve Hornadays ballistic-tip ammo.

shoey
02-02-2009, 12:45 PM
Get the 45-70! :D

the possum
02-03-2009, 01:16 PM
Can the .35 also be loaded with handgun bullets? (meant for the .38 or .357 mag?) Finding a decent hard cast bullet load sounds like it could be fun and good for cheap practice. And using hollowpoints designed for much lower velocities could prove exciting on varmints.

tony pasley
02-03-2009, 11:44 PM
In brush country the .35 is better because twigs don't deflect your shots.
Open field it is about even with a little edge to the >35.

budroe
02-04-2009, 02:18 AM
Probably no real difference between the two, but I've always liked the .35

shoey
02-04-2009, 11:59 AM
In brush country the .35 is better because twigs don't deflect your shots.
Open field it is about even with a little edge to the >35.

Thats pretty much a fallacy. All bullets will deflect if they hit an object in flight. 'Brush guns' are characterized more by their handling characteristics than ballistics. IE a lightweight, short barreled .243 that points well for you would be just as good a brush gun as my 45-70 lever gun is for me, with the lever maybe having a slight advantage because of the speed of follow up shots.

Wayne the Shrink
02-04-2009, 03:18 PM
Both are good Cast Boolit guns. You can shoot cast to the same velocities as you can jacketed and very cheaply. The .35 would be my choice because you can put a bigger meplat on a .35 caliber bullet than you can a .30 caliber boolit. If you want to cast for the .35 look at Ranch Dog molds. Go to Castboolits.gunloads.com and there is a connection on the bottom of the page to his web page.

Still the Chief
02-04-2009, 09:22 PM
Can the .35 also be loaded with handgun bullets? (meant for the .38 or .357 mag?) Finding a decent hard cast bullet load sounds like it could be fun and good for cheap practice. And using hollowpoints designed for much lower velocities could prove exciting on varmints.
Yes you can use the hand gun bullets just remember to keep it down to 357 mag. velocities. Chief

jimfox
02-04-2009, 11:22 PM
I expect either would do fine. As Popeye says, finding Remington .35 ammo might be problematic in some areas.

For hunting I would favor the 45/70 although the light weight of a little Winchester Trapper in 30/30 can mean a lot to those of us who are no longer in our prime years. At practical hunting distances for any of the three rounds I wouldn't expect differences in trajectory to play a significant roll.

budroe
02-05-2009, 04:41 AM
Jim - I'm getting to the age where if the deer is more than 150 yards away, its not worth the walk to drag it back. I'll just wait for something to come closer before shooting.

Hammerdown
02-05-2009, 07:03 AM
Yes you can use the hand gun bullets just remember to keep it down to 357 mag. velocities. Chief

Hello
I echo what Chief say's here. Been there, done that and using the .35 Rem caliber allows cheap fun Varmit loads. Here is a target I shot using 34.0 Grains of IMR 3031 Powder and a 158 Grain jacketed bullet with a velocity of 2200 F.P.S. when fired out of my Marlin 336 at 100 Yards..;) Hammerdown






http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/hammerdown-7/HandLoad100Yards.jpg

Wayne the Shrink
02-05-2009, 07:41 AM
HA! Hammer, so does the 45-70! I've got the 120gr Collar Button mold for mine. Haven't done much with it so far, but at 25yds it does group them well.

the possum
02-05-2009, 10:12 AM
Yes you can use the hand gun bullets just remember to keep it down to 357 mag. velocities.


I echo what Chief say's here. Been there, done that and using the .35 Rem caliber allows cheap fun Varmit loads. Here is a target I shot using 34.0 Grains of IMR 3031 Powder and a 158 Grain jacketed bullet with a velocity of 2200 F.P.S. when fired out of my Marlin 336 at 100 Yards..


Not sure if I'm following this here... So, you agree with Chief that handgun bullets should be kept at handgun velocities? I wasn't aware that the .357 mag could push a 158 grainer 2200 fps out of a handgun. ??

What I think sounds interesting is taking a hollowpoint bullet that's designed to expand, hold together, and penetrate at handgun velocities, and then push it well past that for varmints. So that it practically explodes on impact. Bet it would make a mess out of these pesky raccoons we got 'round here. :)

shoey
02-05-2009, 01:48 PM
That is likely a handgun load that chrono's at a higher velocity due to the barrel length...

bluedlightning
02-05-2009, 09:01 PM
A problem you encounter with 30-30 balistic charts is that they are set up using a 20" barrel, most 94 winchesters are 18" barreled carbines which devolep lower velocitys. Most Marlins chambered for the 35 remington have the full 20" barrels and do much better then the winny carbines.

Hammerdown
02-06-2009, 05:36 AM
Not sure if I'm following this here... So, you agree with Chief that handgun bullets should be kept at handgun velocities? I wasn't aware that the .357 mag could push a 158 grainer 2200 fps out of a handgun. ??

What I think sounds interesting is taking a hollowpoint bullet that's designed to expand, hold together, and penetrate at handgun velocities, and then push it well past that for varmints. So that it practically explodes on impact. Bet it would make a mess out of these pesky raccoons we got 'round here. :)




Hello Possom
I was Refering to Loads worked up for use in my Marlin Model 336 Lever action rifle chambered in.35 Rem. Caliber. Here is the article I read that inspired me to load .357 Magnum Pistol Bullets for this rifle that did so well Group wise..Hammerdown






In discussing this point of view with some of my bullet casting buddies, the question arose of what the all-round bullet might look like. It would need to be gas-checked so as to function at maximum cast bullet velocities. It would need to be reasonably heavy in order to function as a big-game bullet. It would need to have a flat point in order to maximize its effectiveness on game. It would need to be a semi-wadcutter for Bullseye competition. And clearly, it would need to be .35 caliber. Lyman recently started making moulds for a 215 grain gas-checked SWC (mould #358627) in .35 caliber. Now before you scoff at the idea of loading bullets of this weight in the dainty .38 Special, remember that the original Police load consisted of a 200 grain lead round nose.
In any event, the mould was promptly purchased and a loading project was underway. I enlisted the aid of friend Dan Adams to help out with the loading and shooting "chores". Thousands of rounds later, this bullet just seems to get better and better.
Casting details first, the pistol bullets were cast from straight wheel-weights, and were sized .358" (except as noted). With wheel-weight alloy, these bullets came out of the mould weighing 216.3 +/- 1 grain (221.1 grains checked and lubed). Only those bullets with visual defects were discarded (i.e. no weight segregation was used for the pistol bullets). All bullets were lubed with Thompson's Cold Bear Lube and gas-checked with Hornady crimp-on gas-checks.
Taking measurements from the bullet and using the old Remington/DuPont wall charts, en estimated ballistic coefficient of 0.285 was arrived at. Sectional density of a 220 grain .35 caliber bullet is 0.245.
The loading was routine, but one comment should be made for the record, and that is that all cases (both straight-walled and bottle-necked) need to be flared (an RCBS .38/.357 flaring die was used for this data). The short-cut of not flaring cases was tried with the initial .35 Remington test loads, and my 97 year-old grandmother (grand old lady that she was) could throw bricks with better accuracy than that ammo was capable of. Flare the cases. All loads employed a healthy crimp. This bullet has two crimping grooves. The upper crimp groove (i.e. the one resulting in the shorter overall cartridge length) was used for the straight-walled pistol cartridges, whereas the lower crimping groove (resulting in the longer overall cartridge length) was generally used for the bottlenecked cartridges. In any case (pun intended, of course), five rounds were loaded at what was deemed a suitable starting point. The ammo was shot for accuracy and the load increased incrementally until the usual visual signs said "Stop!". The starting load, the most accurate load and the maximum load were then fired separately for velocity. These loads were safe in our guns and are presented only as an accurate record of our findings. As always, start at the low end and work up carefully. Without any further ado, let's get to the loading data.
.38 Special (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLyman358627.htm#38spec) <38 Special load data>
The .38 Special is one of the most loaded cartridges in history. It is a relatively low pressure cartridge, and the faster burning pistol powders are best suited for this case. Accuracy of this cartridge is usually quite good, and this bullet was no exception. Five shot groups at 25 yards were typically under 2 inches, and usually much better, when fired from an open-sighted, rested revolver. Velocities ran in the 500-700 fps range, as might be expected for a 6" revolver. It's worth noting that Accurate Arms #2 gave a satisfying combination of good accuracy and very consistent velocities. A general trend seems to be that this bullet in .38 Special is most accurate around 625 fps.
Some of you may be asking "What possible use could there be for a 220 grain SWC in .38 Special?". Windy day loads for outdoor Bullseye competition? Maybe. Custom butchers typically employ two guns in their trade, a .22 rifle for the routine jobs, and a "big gun" (traditionally a levergun in .25-20 or .32-20) for the bigger tougher animals. In recent years, more than one custom butcher has switched over to a Marlin levergun chambered for .357 Magnum and shoots .38 Special loads in it. The .38 Specials aren’t as loud as the .357 Magnums (and therefore scare less of the barnyard stock), and are capable of all the penetration needed for brain shots. The extra weight of this 220 grain SWC should insure that the brain is reached in those thick-skinned and thick-skulled critters that are sometimes encountered in this line of work. Carl Adams is in his 70s and has been a custom butcher most of his life. He has killed more animals than most hunters will ever see, so he was given a batch of this ammo (loaded with 3.5 grains of Unique) to “field test”. Carl reported back to say that both cattle and hogs dropped right now with this load. No staggering, no wobbling; they simply turned into so much suspended mass for gravity to act upon. Frontal brain shots typically liquefied the brain (“turned it to mush” were Carl’s exact words), exploded the upper neck joint of the spine, and then penetrated under the hide of the neck for several inches (for about 15” of total penetration). Not surprisingly, recovered bullets showed no expansion, only engraving from the rifling and nose scarring. He also reports that this ammo is noticeably quieter than the .38 ammo he had been using (undoubtedly because of the light powder charge).
.357 Magnum (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLyman358627.htm#357mag) <357 Mag. load data>
The .357 Magnum was born as the “world’s most powerful handgun” cartridge, which at the time was probably not the over-used cliché that it is today. It is an extremely versatile and popular cartridge, both for personal protection and hunting. Whether or not the .357 Magnum is an adequate big-game cartridge is a long-standing argument. This 220 grain SWC could easily find use in the hunting fields.
Some .357 Magnum brass is thicker than others in the lower portions of the case. Once this long bullet is loaded into the case, all loaded rounds bulge somewhat and some will not chamber. Load a dummy round first to make sure your lot of brass will chamber in your gun once loaded. Federal nickel plated cases were used for the test data. The medium to slow pistol powders gave the best results. Unique was too fast -- pressures climbed too quickly while velocities were still low. With powders slower than Unique, accuracy ranged from fair to excellent, with several 1” groups at 25 yards. Accuracy was generally best in the 1000 fps ballpark (from a 6” barrel).
From a 6” revolver, 1100 fps was the upper velocity limit for the .357 Magnum.
Accurate Arms #7 proved to be the single most accurate load, putting five shots into under 1” at 25 yards with 9.0 grain charges, and velocities were quite respectable at over 1000 fps.
Another of the more accurate loads was 10.0 grains of Accurate Arms #9. This load delivered 875 fps from a 2 1/2” revolver, 959 fps from a 6” and 1012 fps from and 8 3/8” barrel. Firing this load in a 10” Contender gave 1096 fps. This load was field tested on Montana jack rabbits over the summer. Launching this load from a 6” S&W 686 consistently resulted in a solid “Thump!” and a 1/2” to 3/4” exit. Well hit jacks were flattened instantly, while more poorly hit jacks never traveled more than 20 yards.
Bullets don’t need to be crimped in the Contender, so some test loads were assembled seating the bullets out to where they just touched the lands (OAL = 1.725”). Working up to 17.5 grains of Acc. Arms 1680, it was possible to achieve 1300 fps. It should be emphasized that this was possible only in the T/C and that this load is not suitable for .357 Magnum revolvers. This is a heavily compressed load and it was not possible to increase the load any further and still maintain the 1.725” overall length.
As a result, recourse was made to a slightly faster burning powder in order to minimize powder bulk and maximize velocity. When these bullets were launched out of a 10” iron-sighted Contender with 11.5 grains of Accurate Arms #9, accuracy was outstanding (1.0” five shot groups at 25 yards), and velocities average 1221 fps. The maximum charge of 13.0 grains of AA #9 wasn’t too far behind in the accuracy department at 1.3”, with truly impressive a (and consistent) velocities averaging 1358 fps. Working up in similar fashion with W296 revealed a maximum charge of 13.0 grains and a velocity of over 1400 fps! Again, these loads are for the Contender only, with the 358627 seated to an OAL of 1.725”.
These results should qualify the .35 Magnum as an adequate deer load out to about 75 yards in a suitably loaded Contender. There are some good ol’ boys down Georgia way that I met when I lived down there that like to hunt feral hogs with .357 revolvers, and dollars to donuts says they’ll be real interested in this bullet. This combination in the Contender could prove popular in silhouette circles as well. Time will tell.

.357 Maximum (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLyman358627.htm#maxi) <357 Maxi load data>Top of Page (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLyman358627.htm#top)


The .357 Maximum was created in order to convince any stubborn rams that they really wanted to fall down. This 220 grain SWC at 1400+ fps should prove to be quite convincing. In addition, this combination could prove to be a good handgun hunting load for deer-sized game, out to perhaps 100 yards. The loads fired in this Dan Wesson revolver were sized .356”. Accuracy of most of these load were excellent (as seems to be the norm with DW revolvers), with several shooting into 1” or less at 25 yards. Stick with the slower burning powders in the .357 Maximum, the medium burners delivered significantly less satisfying results with this bullet. The overall winner seems to be Winchester 680, both in terms of accuracy and velocity. Bulging cases were also observed in the .357 Maximum loaded rounds, however in no cases did these minor bulges keep the rounds from being chambered.

http://www.lasc.us/357Max215Lyman-2.jpg


Lyman 358627 & Remington 357 Maximum


.35 Remington (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLyman358627.htm#35rem) <35 Rem load data>
The arthritic old .35 Remington has been with us since 1906 (a very good year for cartridges it seems). Thank goodness! It may be old and decrepit, but year after year it proves itself to be one helluva good hunting load by putting ton after ton of venison into the deep freeze. With T/C chambering their Contender for this venerable old-timer there has been a resurgence of interest in this cartridge in recent years. Never meant as a long-distance proposition, the .35 Remington will cleanly take deer out to 150 yards, and the 220 SWC fits into this philosophy quite nicely. What’s more, with the penetration that this cast bullet is capable of, black bear and elk are also fair game for this combination. Accuracy was generally quite good, with all powders tested succeeding in shooting 1” 5-shot groups at 50 yards from a 14” Contender with a 5x scope. The clear winner was 35.0 grains of IMR 4895 producing a 50 yards group consisting of one ragged hole and averaging over 1800 fps.
Cartridges for the Contender were loaded to OAL of 2.42” (i.e. crimped in the bottom crimp groove). Assembled in this fashion, the bullet was lightly engraved upon closing the action. This OAL was found to be too long to chamber in a Marlin 336 .35 Remington, so test loads assembled for the rifle were crimped in the upper crimp groove (OAL = 2.30”). Loaded with 33.0 grains of IMR 3031, the rifle printed 2” groups at 50 yards (open buckhorn sights), with velocities just over 1900 fps. This OAL length was found to be too short to allow smooth functioning of the action is the magazine was loaded (the carrier would hang up on the next round in line), thereby limiting this load to double loading (i.e. one in the chamber, one in the magazine), which worked very nicely.
Warning: All technical data mentioned, especially handloading and bullet casting, reflect the limited experience of individuals using specific tools, products, equipment and components under specific conditions and circumstances not necessarily reported in the article or on this web site and over which The Los Angeles Silhouette Club (LASC), this web site or the author has no control. The above has no control over the condition of your firearms or your methods, components, tools, techniques or circumstances and disclaims all and any responsibility for any person using any data mentioned. Always consult recognized reloading manuals.

Loading data for the Lyman 358627Test Gun: 6” Taurus 66 .38 Special (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLyman358627.htm#38art) <To Article>
Test Gun: 6” Taurus 66 .357 Magnum (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLyman358627.htm#357art) <To Article>
Cases: Winchester
Lyman 358627
Cases: Federal (nickel)
Lyman 358627
Primers: CCI 500
Primers: CCI 500
Powder
ChargeVelocityCommentsPowder
ChargeVelocityCommentsBullseye
2.0546 2400
8.0807Accurate
2.5629Accurate
10.51084
3.0720 Accurate Arms #7
6.5750 Accurate Arms #2
2.5546
9.01011Very accurate
3.0629Very accurate
9.51088
3.5704AccurateAccurate Arms #9
7.5767All #9 loads shot wellUnique
2.5516
10.0959Very accurate
3.5708Good accuracy
10.51068 Winchester 540
4.5607AccurateWinchester 296
8.5748Poor
5.0718
11.51008Accurate

10.5959Very accurate

13.01113Fastest .357 load
Accurate Arms #1680
12.5857Accurate

13.5914

15.51028Accurate, 1096 fps in 8 3/8”, 1154 fps in 10” T/C

Test Gun: 8” Dan Wesson .357 Maximum (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLyman358627.htm#maxiart) <To Article>
Test Gun: 14” Contender .35 Remington (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLyman358627.htm#35remart) <To Article>
Cases: IHMSA
Lyman 358627
Cases: IHMSA
Lyman 358627
Primers: CCI SR Magnum
Primers: CCI 200
Powder
ChargeVelocityCommentsPowder
ChargeVelocityCommentsAccurate Arms #7
9.0961All #7 loads shot wellH322
31.01710
12.01231Accurate
32.01834Accurate
13.01307Very accurate
33.51887Consistent velocitiesWinchester 296
18.01318 IMR 3031
31.01593
19.01357Good velocity
33.01785AccurateWinchester 680
19.51328
35.01882Compressed
20.51409Fast and accurateAccurate Arms #2230
34.51593Fair accuracyIMR 4227
18.51280Accurate
36.01927Fastest .35 Rem load
19.51341AccurateIMR 4895
34.01755

35.01822Very accurate

36.51871Compressed
H 335
31.01572

33.01713Accurate

37.01836

zeke
02-06-2009, 05:38 AM
Or step up to a 444 Marlin that can use 44 caliber pistol bullets. 180 jhp velocity out of a 444 can be impressive.

Adolf H. Bubba
02-20-2009, 03:18 PM
If I could acquire a Remington Model 8 or 81, .35 Remington in a breath; those two rifles are the two best U.S. hunting rifles made.

magnum62
02-20-2009, 06:21 PM
I've got both in a Marlin. I wouldn't get rid of either. When I hunt for hogs I grab the 35, when it's deer at about 150 yards in, I grab the 30-30... to beat all I just traded for a 32 Special, go figure. I guess it's personal preference.

maxiball
02-20-2009, 06:55 PM
Can the .35 also be loaded with handgun bullets? (meant for the .38 or .357 mag?) Finding a decent hard cast bullet load sounds like it could be fun and good for cheap practice. And using hollowpoints designed for much lower velocities could prove exciting on varmints.


The factory 150 .35 load is not very accurate at all. Ergo handgun bulles won;t be either.
You musst load them down in velocity to be able to hit an apple cart.
The .35 shines with 200 and 220 granin bullets and kills all out of proportion to paper ballistics.
I'm a fan of th 30-30.
Were I to go hog hunting I'd take the .35 "just 'cause". I can lso get Ranchdog molds in 195 grain for the .35.
You should put an end to this useless drivel and get the 45-70.
Now THAT'S a levergun!

PawPawBear
09-13-2009, 01:28 AM
30-30 is a good versatile round. I have had lever guns in 30-30, .357 Magnum, and 45-70. If you want to shoot .357 bullets in a lever gun, I recommend getting a Marlin or Winchester in .38spcl/.357 Magnum. I loaded 125gr. rounds @ around 2000fps. It is a deer killer no problem. If you are going for wild hogs, I recommend the 45-70. I use a 45-70 for bison, so it should work on wild hogs. The debate on 30-30 vs. 35 Rem should be answered by what the intended application is and how important ammunition availability is to you. I am pleased with the combination of having a .357 magnum and a 45-70. These cover my lever gun needs. the .38/.357 is fun to shoot and is good for mild practice for youth when loaded with .38 spcl.

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