Question 12, Form 4473. The stupid ones and the trippers.


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richfolkes
02-07-2009, 05:59 AM
I have been reading the latest ATF Form 4473 and after reading Question 12, I thought I'd like to highlight the ones that trip those up and the ones that nobody will answer yes to truthfully. The stupid ones are in red. The trippers are in blue.

Here they are:


a. Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. IF you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannont transfer the firearm(s) to you. (See Important Notice 1 for actual buyer definition and examples.)

b. Are you under indictment or information in any court for a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could imprison you for more than one year? (An information is a formal accusation of a crime by a prosecutor. (See Definition 3.)

c. Have you been convicted in any court of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned you for more than one year, even if you received a shorter sentence including probation? (See Important Notice 6, Exception 1.)

d. Are you a fugitive from justice?

e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or or any other controlled substance?

f. Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes having being adjudicated incompetent to manage your own affairs) or have you ever been committed to a mental institution?

g. Have you been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions?

h. Are you subject to a court order restraining you from harassing, stalking or threatening your child or an intimate partner or child of such partner? (See Important Notice 7.)

i. Have you been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence? (See Important Notice 6, Exception 1 and Definition 4.)

j. Have you renounced your United States Citizenship?

k. Are you an alien illegally in the United States?

l. Are you a nonimmigrant alien? (See Definition 6.)

13. If you are a nonimmigrant alien, do you fall within any of the exceptions set forth in Important Notice 6, Exception 2?

Yes [ ] No [ ] Not applicable [ ] (If 'yes," the licensee must complete question 18c.)

Lets start with the trippers:

Question 12c. The buyer may have paid a fine. Or that no conviction was recorded.

Question 12f. The buyer may have been in a mental institution once upon a time on account of a "social admission". This may be construed as being "committed".

Question 12i. Something with the buyer from childhood may well come back to bite him for this.

Now the stupid:

Question 12d. How many fugitives from justice fill in Form 4473's? They use different (and illegal) methods to get their guns.

Question 12e. Same thing. They don't fill in Form 4473's, do they? Why should they? No point in that. They get their guns some other way. Why leave Form 4473's behind for the cops to track them down with?

Question 12g. It's a foregone conclusion that the majority of dishonorably discharged vets who have guns (including NFA regulated machine guns, DD's, AOW's and 'post 1986' machine guns) are "private contractors", and those guns belong to the company who contracts them. Others belong to criminal gangs and you know where they get their guns from.

Question 12j. No. I renounced my Soviet, my Chinese and North Korean citizenship's. Not to mention I also renounced my Saudi Arabian, Libyan, Syrian, Iraqi and Iranian citizenship's.

An American who was naturalized overseas (i.e. Australia before dual citizenship's were permitted) will answer "yes" to question 13 and qualify under Important Notice 6 and Exception 2.

Question 12k. An illegal alien isn't going to fill in a Form 4473, nevermind answer "yes" to this question. If he's in the US for criminal purposes, he'll have brought his guns with him from his own country or get them in the US via the "you know what" channels.

Note also that Question 12j is a tripper as well. An American who came to Australia as a small child and grew up enrolling to vote in Australian elections and was eligible for an Australian passport, but returned via his US birth certificate can be tripped up here because he exercised Australian citizenship rights.

GCA '68 only affects the law abiding, not the criminals.

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justadad
02-07-2009, 07:24 AM
I think 12F is funny. If you were mentally defective would you know it and if so would you admit it?

OFallon
02-07-2009, 07:28 AM
These questions are something that might be a wonder to you, but we are used to them. Your posts only serve to want me to remind you that, regardless, we still have more, better and nicer guns than you! :P

KD5NRH
02-07-2009, 11:07 AM
One of my former bosses swears that he's seen every one of these answered yes over the years. I've seen one or two of them.

Sir Knight
02-07-2009, 12:41 PM
d. Are you a fugitive from justice?
Had a guy bring in his arrest warrant as proof of id.

g. Have you been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions?
Yep, had somebody answer 'yes' to that question.

j. Have you renounced your United States Citizenship?
Same here. Person renounced his American citizenship to become a citizen of Canada. Then moved back to the US as a permanent resident. Was denied the purchase.

Fuelburns1
02-07-2009, 02:02 PM
I've filled out so many dozens of these forms that if a question is ever changed I may be in trouble. I have to remind myself to actually read it before I fill it out anymore.

Chuck Langenderfer
02-07-2009, 02:03 PM
as for felons answering 12d and 12e--they dont have to--SCOTUS say so.. giving evidence against ones self.

Olys45
02-07-2009, 02:13 PM
These questions are something that might be a wonder to you, but we are used to them. Your posts only serve to want me to remind you that, regardless, we still have more, better and nicer guns than you! :P


Yep...

Oly

Popeye
02-07-2009, 02:14 PM
At one time or another I have seen every question on the form answered incorrectly. Usually, the person doesn't understand the question. (Here, 12k is the question most often misunderstood.) Sometimes they perfectly understand the question and answer truthfully.

Olys45
02-07-2009, 02:22 PM
At one time or another I have seen every question on the form answered incorrectly. Usually, the person doesn't understand the question. (Here, 12k is the question most often misunderstood.) Sometimes they perfectly understand the question and answer truthfully.

I have a question for you...

What are the legal steps if somebody answers wrong? Can you quiz them to see if they understood the questions?

I have always called them "The Silly Questions" and make sure I answer the correct one yes and breeze through them before I answer no to the others.

Oly

NavajoNPaleFace
02-07-2009, 02:29 PM
I have a question for you...

What are the legal steps if somebody answers wrong? Can you quiz them to see if they understood the questions?

I have always called them "The Silly Questions" and make sure I answer the correct one yes and breeze through them before I answer no to the others.

Oly

I did answer wrongly on an application once and they allowed me to fill out another.

Olys45
02-07-2009, 02:55 PM
I did answer wrongly on an application once and they allowed me to fill out another.

I've always wondered... thanks!

Oly

Popeye
02-07-2009, 03:10 PM
I have a question for you...

What are the legal steps if somebody answers wrong? Can you quiz them to see if they understood the questions?

Not quiz. I can read the question to them placing emphasis on certain words. I can also give them the definition of certain words. If a mistake is made on the form the original form is voided and a new form is filled out. If I determine that the incorrect answer is, in fact, a truthful answer the transaction is stopped. No firearm can be transferred to that person.

paulb
02-07-2009, 03:19 PM
Just bought a mini 14 last night and had to fill out the form.
Pointed the same questions out to my wife and she was amazed at the stupidity of them!

Sir Knight
02-07-2009, 03:23 PM
Not quiz. I can read the question to them placing emphasis on certain words. I can also give them the definition of certain words. See? We were SPECIFICALLY told by the District Attorney that we were not allowed to do that because it would void a prosecution. As soon as a second person got involved, they could always say that it wasn't properly explained to them -- getting out of falsely answering a question.

Popeye
02-07-2009, 03:32 PM
Since the ATFE makes the store employee personally/legally responsible if said employee transfers a weapon to a proscribed person and it is also said employee's job to sell firearms, it is to said employee's benefit to make sure all questions are clearly understood.

Sir Knight
02-07-2009, 04:34 PM
I have a question for you...

What are the legal steps if somebody answers wrong? Can you quiz them to see if they understood the questions?

I have always called them "The Silly Questions" and make sure I answer the correct one yes and breeze through them before I answer no to the others.

Oly
I did answer wrongly on an application once and they allowed me to fill out another.It depends on the store.

We are located in not the best part of town. I've even seen crime news shows on TV specifically mention the town we're in as an area where they run illegal guns from. So, we're a bit more cautious especially when we have folks coming in and attempting to buy half a dozen of the same gun without even asking to look at it or continue coming back week after week buying the same gun while filing in on the state form that they are unemployed.

What I do is give the individual three chances to correct a mistake. If I see an answer which would disqualify them from making a purchase, I ask them a second time to review the form to make sure that everything was filled in correctly stressing the fact that they are filling out a federal form which will determine their eligibility to purchase a firearm.

If they still have it incorrect, I ask them a second time if everything is correct. If they say that it is, I stop the sale since they had three opportunities to put the correct answer down.

Sir Knight
02-07-2009, 04:34 PM
Since the ATFE makes the store employee personally/legally responsible if said employee transfers a weapon to a proscribed person and it is also said employee's job to sell firearms, it is to said employee's benefit to make sure all questions are clearly understood.The way that it was explained to us was that if we start explaining things, a person who might be disqualified from making a purchase and always shift the blame saying that based on how it was explained to him, he answered it correctly. If he answers it by himself and falsely answers something, then he is held accountable and can be prosecuted.

Popeye
02-07-2009, 05:06 PM
We were SPECIFICALLY told by the District Attorney that we were not allowed to do that because it would void a prosecution.

Since it is a FEDERAL form, the local DA has absolutely no say in its execution. He/she cannot even legally request to see the completed forms. Their only legal access to the completed forms is through the ATFE.

Sir Knight
02-07-2009, 05:46 PM
Maybe it differs by state but when we run the instant check, we go through the state police and if somebody is denied, we fax the form to them and they pass it on to the local district attorney who prosecutes.

Nathan C Lewis
02-07-2009, 06:18 PM
I was not allowed to own a gun for five years, it was like being in Hell, but it got me away from my ex-Wife:), so it was a good thing in the end:D:D:D:D, Nate

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