3.7 grains of 700X


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Reddog
07-04-2010, 01:58 AM
This past year I decided to load all the shotgun shells that I had accumilated over the years for my son and grandson to use. I don't do much hunting anymore, and I can't seem to get them interested in hand loading, so I just did it for them. I had a lot of powder and primers and a fair quantity of shot on hand. All and all, considering the 12, 16, and 20 gauges we shoot, I loaded something over 4,000 rounds.
As to the 700X, when I got finished, I still had over two pounds of it and odds and ends of several other shotgun powders left. Have you ever tried to sell short lots of powder? You can't get half the current value! So, since we shoot quite a bit of .38 Special, I decided to see how it would work. After studying several manuals, I decided the 3.7 load would be safe with my favorite semi-wad cast bullet (153 gr. RCBS) and WSP primers in the .38 Special.
So, I loaded a box in some good Federal brass that I had on hand and slipped out to my shelterbelt range to check them out with my 6" S&W 686. After I got set up, the wind started to blow and it looked like it might rain. So, after I shot my first target at 25 yards off the sandbags, it did start to rain and I had to quit!
I wonder if I'll be this lucky with the rest of my short lots of shotgun powder?
Dick
Use this load at your own risk! I'm not recommending it!

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Stevejet
07-04-2010, 04:35 PM
I would definately NOT chance it! Cease and desist from the ill advised and dicey practice of loading your handgun ammo with shotgun powders. God did not intend this to happen!

Instead, package the remnant powders in their containers into a large static resistance box and send them to:

STEVEJET
3006 Point Blank Drive
Happy Town, USA 38357

Do this immediately, as in "quick, like a bunny", so that proper disposal of those dangerous substances can be accomplished by my professional staff. If received before next Friday, I will waive the customary "disposal fee".

Like Bill O'Reilly, I'm lookin' out for YOU!

Reddog
07-04-2010, 05:00 PM
Thanks, Steve!
I really appreciate your concern! Hold your breath 'til the powder shows up!
Happy 4th. to you and yours! If it wasn't raining here, I would go out and set off some 38's, 41's, 44's, and 45's to celebrate! I wonder if "O" appreciates what today means? He probably celebrates on May 1st., instead!
Dick

bluedlightning
07-05-2010, 01:25 AM
Whats wrong with using shotgun powder in pistol ammo? I've been doing it for years with Red Dot, Green Dot, and Blue Dot. They work great for my target loads in my 38s, 41s and 45s.

Stevejet
07-05-2010, 02:25 AM
Hey, hey, hey bucko! Get all your Green, Red and Blue Dots packaged immediately and in the mail by this coming Tuesday! If you hurry I'll intervene and try to get this off of your Permanent Record. ok?

And what's with with you two birds sharing the same 1911 Colt avatars? Flip a coin or have a duel, will ya'?

Reddog
07-05-2010, 08:36 AM
Blue,
There's nothing wrong with it! I've done it for years, that's just a combo I had never tried. Besides, I think Steve's just kidding, don't you?

Steve,
Looks like Blue had the avatar first, so what can I say? He's my neighbor, anyway, so I'll just have to let it go!

We seem to have a never ending rain going on here? Sure wish it would quit so I could burn some more of that shotgun powder today!
Dick

Reddog
07-05-2010, 03:32 PM
The sun just came out! Maybe!

Yes it did! And I did get out! A little damp but cool!

The target below was fired with the 686, off sandbags, at 25 yards, too. That's how I test all new handgun loads.
The load is: 153 gr. RCBS semi-wad, 4.7 gr. Alliant Unique and Win WSP primer. Turned out good! As always, use this load at your own risk! I'm not recommending it!
Dick

Reddog
07-05-2010, 07:11 PM
I'll bet most of you have never used this powder, and in fact hardly any of you have ever even heard of it! It is an old Hodgdon powder that dates from the '50s or 60's. It's called Gray-B and was originally intended for shotshells, I believe. I had to seach a lot of old manuals to figure this one out. Actually, I've been using it for quite a while. This is the tail end of about a pound or so that I bought from a fellow several years ago. I used most of it in shot shells and loaded several boxes of this load to finish it. Came out pretty good!
Dick
As always, use this load at your own risk! I'm not recommending it!

bluedlightning
07-05-2010, 07:45 PM
I'm hanging onto my red, blue, and green dot powders. If you want any go get your own. :lol:

Reddog
07-10-2010, 12:27 AM
A warm, calm day, today, so I dug out my S&W K-38 that was my first centerfire handgun, purchased, used, back in 1966. I haven't fired it much in the last few years, but it was a real treat! It's a shooter! I fired 30 rounds of the 153 SW with 4.7 gr. Unique. Of 30 rounds fired, only 4 were out of the 10 ring! The target was pretty well taped up so didn't get a pic of it.
It's been fired several thousand rounds, mostly midrange target type reloads. It's still a slick old gun. If I remember right, it shipped originally in '50 or '51. I was pleased with it's performance with this bullet. Life is good!
As always, use this load at your own risk! I'm not recommending it!
Dick

Stevejet
07-10-2010, 01:12 AM
Don't be cheeky, bluedlighting. Nothin' ventured, nothin' gained. Just trying help you boyz out, get you converted over to Unique or TiteGroup!

The address is still valid if'n you change your mind!

Reddog
07-10-2010, 11:20 PM
Steve,
The reason I use old powders is that I bought a lot, back when!
Dick

Stevejet
07-11-2010, 01:25 AM
I bought a 3 1/2 pound caddy of Unique as part of an after Christmas sale in Florida back in 1982. That caddy made trips to Alabama, Utah and California where I finally reloaded the last of it in 2003. 21 years old and it fired just fine. I must admit, however, that when firing .45 ACP with the "old Unique" I developed an accumulation of black dots on the wrist of my shooting hand. Evidently a few grains were degraded to where they just couldn't burn. The cartridges fired just fine and I didn't notice any degradation in their power.

Now, I'd hate for this to happen to any of you fella's who are hoarding cans and other lots of old shotgun powders. So, here's my last offer to take such powders off your hands and relieve anyone from becoming "speckled" with old shotgun powders.

Reddog
07-11-2010, 10:51 AM
I've never had the "speckeled wrist" effect?
I think the oldest powder I have left is a full one pound can of Hercules Hivel #2. They quit making it in the '60s, or before. At the time, everyone wondered why they stopped producing it because it was considered one of the best rifle powders made? Some collector should have it, but it would have to trade hands face to face. Shipping costs would be prohibitive.

Reddog
07-13-2010, 03:51 PM
Well, Fellers!
It's 99 and climbing outside! I got my yard work done and planned to shoot rhe R-1, this afternoon, but it's just too dang hot and humid! Humid is unusual around here but we've had lots of rain lately. Guess I'll go load something!
Dick

Reddog
08-02-2010, 01:52 AM
I clocked a few of these 3.7gr. 700X loads, yesterday, at an average speed of 800 fps. Also some of the 4.7 gr. Unique at 875 fps, both with the 150 gr. RCBS cast semi-wad in .38 Special cases.
Later, I looked at several loading manuals and decided the 700x load was light. Two different books listed 4.0 gr. of 700X as the starting load and 5.0 gr. as the max load with the 150 gr. bullet. Another listed 4.0 start and 6.0 as max. All three of them also listed 4.0 as the starting load with Red Dot and 231 with the 150 gr. RCBS SW cast bullet. Looks like I've got some more playing around to do! One of them might be better than the 700X?
So far, the most accurate load of the above has been the one using Unique. These were all fired in my 6" 686.
Dick
Use these loads at your own risk! I'm not recommending them.

Stevejet
08-02-2010, 02:05 AM
And I suppose you're one of those guys who thinks guns just grow on tree's, eh?

Reddog
08-02-2010, 10:25 AM
Man, don't I wish!

Reddog
08-07-2010, 04:10 PM
Today, in 98 heat, I fired 10 rounds each of the 4.0 gr. 700X and 4.0 gr. of Red Dot, each with the 150 gr. RCBS cast semi-wad in .38 Special. This time, they were fired in my nickel plated 6" 586. I also fired 5 rounds of 3.7 gr. of 700X. The 3.7 gr. 700X won hands down! So much for that!
Dick

Stevejet
08-07-2010, 06:44 PM
I've found that 700X, a standby since 1972, and recently Bullseye, Tite Group and Win 231 all give great results in my .38/.357 loads in the 940-980 FPS velocity loadings. And they all really burn quite cleanly.

As 99.99% of my handgunning is done free-hand, I can't vouch for any powder being more accurate than another, but I load all my handgun cartridges with lead bullets and keep velocites between 830 to 1,000 FPS except with Bullseye which is more pressure critical (a little develops a lot of short duration high pressure).

Reddog
08-08-2010, 01:10 AM
Steve,
Maybe I need to try 4.5 and 5.0?
Dick

Reddog
08-20-2010, 01:32 PM
I did try these two loads and they weren't as good as the 3.7 charge. I found another 1.5 pounds of 700X that I forgot I had? That's enough for another 2,800 loads! Don't think I'm going to make it. May try some in .45 ACP.
Dick

Reddog
08-23-2010, 01:21 AM
5.0 grains of the 700X worked very well with the 45 ACP. See the thread on the Remington R-1.

Stevejet
08-23-2010, 02:03 AM
Just a note, I am reading my October 2010 edition of GUNS magazine and one of the regular writers, Massad Ayoob, a hangun shooting competitor and defense instructor, has his article centered on "Comfortable vs. Comforting" which addresses holsters for everday carry.

One of the articles feature photo's is of a Remington 1911 R1 in an Ayoob Rear Guard holster made by a fellow named Mitch Rosen. So, people are evidently trickling over to selecting the Remington 1911. I just never have figured what the allure is of having another person design and make a holster for someone and name it after that person, except to attract or influence a person to buy that product because it is named for a shooter/writer. Hmmmm, just answered my own question. Sales must be skyrocketing, eh?

As for that recently discoverd "old" 700X powder. Smell it. Is its odor sweet or slightly tart or sour? Either way, its probably deteriorated, so you had best mail it to me immediately for proper disposal, pronto! As always, your well being is at the center of my attention.

Reddog
08-24-2010, 02:02 AM
Steve,
This 700X isn't as old as what I was using. No smell! Thanks for the concern, though!
I used to read Ayoob regularly in some mag, years ago. Guns and Ammo, maybe? He was a California cop, wasn't he?

Reddog
08-29-2010, 12:25 PM
Took the 6" GP-100 out yesterday to try the two loads mentioned above. 3.7 - 700X and 4.7 - Unique. Both good in this gun! I think the 700X was the best of the two. I put a spring kit in this gun and lowered the trigger pull from 8 lbs to 4 lbs. It's definately not a Smith!
Dick

Reddog
09-13-2010, 09:03 AM
Got out to the range yesterday, and tried three new .38 Special loads with the 153 gr. RCBS SW in the 6" 686. 3.5 gr. Bullseye and 4.0 Red Dot were very good. 3.0 Clays, not so good. Going to try 3.5 grains, next.
Still waiting for my new Alpha Master Chrony!
Dick

Reddog
09-13-2010, 07:17 PM
Shot the Clays loads this afternoon, several groups with both 3 and 3.5 grains. Surprisingly, the 3 grain loads were the best! Settled that!
Dick

Reddog
09-18-2010, 05:30 PM
Still no new Chrony.

Stevejet
09-18-2010, 06:08 PM
Totally unacceptable! You've got firearms and ammo....influence those laggards!

Reddog
09-18-2010, 11:12 PM
Can't do that! I might get in trouble!
Hey, what's with the shields? Something new? At first I thought I'd got a promotion!

Reddog
09-26-2010, 08:57 PM
I talked to Chrony and they tell me I should receive my new chronograph Monday or Tuesday! Looking forward to trying it out!

Stevejet
09-27-2010, 01:33 AM
We ALL got promoted, about 2 weeks ago.

Reddog
09-27-2010, 07:45 PM
Received the Alpha Master, today! Hope to check it out, tomorrow! Will have some pics!
Dick

Reddog
09-29-2010, 01:28 AM
Hey Shooters,
I set it up this afternoon, and it works very well! I did notice that they left the Chrony sticker off the front end of it, so I called and they're sending me one.
I tested four different .38 Special loads on it, ten rounds each, and played with it enough to get the hang of it. We didn't get a very good pic of the remote screen sitting on the bench. It's beside me in the "Old Man" pic, but you can't make it out. All the controls are on that remote, right at hand.
The photo cell assembly is sitting on a steel fence T-post, driven a couple feet into the ground. My son welded up a platform that has a piece of pipe on the bottom of it made to fit the top of the post. Pretty neat!
I set it at twelve feet. That's close enough for the way I play. It's all relative, anyway!
Those big, tall diffusers are really nice! My old chrony had cardboard things with an oblong hole in them with a small plastic shade on top. I shot the edges of the holes and repaired them a great many times!
Also, this new one flashes LB for low battery! I thought the nine volt battery I put in it was new, but it turned out not to be! It didn't quit working but kept flashing LB between rounds, alternating with the velocity. It did take a while to figure out what it was trying to tell me.
I'm glad I don't have to use it all the time! Only on new loads or in different guns. It requires a lot of hauling and setup to get going! I'm pleased!
Dick

Stevejet
09-29-2010, 02:45 AM
Now you look like Mr. Wizard! "Well, Bobby. It's real easy to determine how fast these bullets travel. Just stand in front of that far screen while I set up my "equipment!"

So. get some velocity data on those .45 ACP's with 700X that were driving the primers back into the breech-face firing pin hole. I believe you were using 5.0 grains 700X with 200 grain leads (?). I just finished reloading 150 rounds of that very load, but with Winchester LP primers, not CCI 300's.

Reddog
09-29-2010, 11:35 AM
I will, Steve.
If not today, tomorrow.
Dick

Reddog
09-29-2010, 10:43 PM
Well, Boyo!
I got 'r done! Ran three .45 ACP loads across the Chrony, today, starting with the 5.0 gr. 700X with the 200 gr cast semi-wad. It's over 100 FPS faster than the 4.7 gr. of Reddot or 5.3 gr. of W-231. The energy scores almost 100 FT. LBS. more than either of the other two, also! Plus, it's the only one of the three that extrude primers into the firing pin hole! I still wonder if it has something to do with this particular tin of 700X? This is the batch that has no yellow flakes in the mix. I don't ever remember that before? The 700X and W-231 loads are in WCC military brass, Reddots are in WW brass.
None are as accurate as the 5.3 gr. of W-231, still!
I think you can get all the info off these record sheets. If not, let me know.
Dick

Stevejet
09-30-2010, 12:38 AM
Well, I am GLAD you got the chrony up and running. I don't have one, obviously, nor have I shot thru one and with all the reloading books and free pamphlets the powder companies give away I sometimes wonder about their data, what with all the velocity variations they publish. I still can't explain the "extruded" primers you have experienced except to suggest that maybe some different powder got funneled into an empty 700X can (?).

Now listen, being unemployed right now and having plenty of spare time on my hands, I have three less than a year old bottles (plastic) of 700X. If you want, I'll sort thru them with my tweezers and gather up a few dozen yellow flakes and send 'em to you, if that will make you feel better (?). Don't know if they will alleviate or diminish "primer extrusion" but what the hey.....can't hurt.

Thanks a ton for scanning in the chrony data, it's the first I've ever seen and the 200 gr. bullet stuff looks red hot, right down my alley. Hope little Bobby didn't get nicked up too bad, Mr. Wizard?

Let me know about the "yellow flakes" so I can allot time from my almost busy day for collecting 'em.

Reddog
09-30-2010, 01:33 AM
You probably better hang on to the yellow flakes. You may need them. You can use them on your salad in place of Mrs. Dash!
I was going to post a couple pics of the primers but apparently I've maxed out? Do I need to get rid of some old ones? Catch you tomorrow. 12.30 am, here!
Dick

Added pics.
First is the 5 gr. 700X in the WCC brass. Google "700x in the .45 ACP" for some interesting reading! Cracked frames with 5 grains and etc..
Second is the 5.3gr. W-231 in the same brass. Notice the difference in the primers.

Reddog
10-01-2010, 04:38 PM
I edited my last post and added the brass pics there instead of a new post. Probably shouldn't have? Anyway, what do you think? The 231 case primers show a little firing pin drag but no extrusion like the 700X cases. Quite a difference!

Stevejet
10-02-2010, 02:05 AM
Good photo's and I would be concerned with cratered primers as exhibited with the 700X load results. I have loaded my Colt .45 ACP to as high as 880 FPS with 230 grain leads and slightly over 1,000 FPS with 200 grain leads, but I've never encountered cratered primers, and I use W-W, Federal, R-P, military headstamped and many other types of brass. So.....we have to gather some facts and clues here.

By reference to the 2010 Hodgdon Basic Reloading Manual, the "Powder Burn Rate Chart" lists 700X as 8th fastest powder, W231 as 23rd fastest of a list containing 117 powders.

The Lyman 48th Edition Manual lists a 200 grain lead .45 ACP with 700X powder load ranging from 4.4 to 5.5 grains, so you're in the middle. This loading is repeated exactly in the LEE-Modern Reloading, Second Edition manual, so unless that 700X sans "yellow flakes" is NOT 700X or it has morphed into starchier stuff, I can't fault the powder charge weight, only the state of the powder. By the way, the manuals in stated order also list maximum velocities for 5.5 grains of 700X at 884 FPS/17,500 CUP and 930 FPS/17,700 CUP, respectively. These FPS/CUP figures are, for comparison, pretty close but we have to remember that we are dealing with pressure peak over time, and the 700X is faster on the burn rate chart. But still........?

OAL of cartridge (bullet seating depth) will effect pressures and IF the suspect powder, being devoid of "yellow flakes"....which I have segrated quite a few at this end, just in case, is a culprit in combination with bullet seating depth, it gets curiouser and curiouser, eh?

NOW.....look at the "witness marks" on the primers as well as the primer pockets. The primer cups bear straight line striations which with cratering tells us the primers have possibly moved back from their, we assume, fully seated positions or became "domed" momentarily from the case internal pressure. Are the primer pockets of that old military head stamped brass properly reamed and/or are the pockets loose from many reloadings?

You know.....I told and even admonished you to send that treacherous and "iffy" damm powder to ME for proper disposal. If you had accepted my generous offer and complied with it I could have loaded some hell-hot and furious duplicate rounds for testing in our street lab in South Central L.A. But we will have time to talk on that subject later.

I am now focused on the case head photo's, but having just finished reloading 150 .357 Magnum experimental squibs with 3-D's lead 148 grain hollow base wad cutters, with 3.4 grains Bullseye for 900 FPS, I've grown a bit weary. So, let me think on this a bit more and study those case heads and we can thrash this out a bit more tomorrow. If any of our FFF "finer & keener minds" care to toss this about for resolution, well let 'em flay away. I don't mind beating a dead horse, in fact the deader the less likely I'll get kicked.

Again, good photo's and great chrony sheets. Tomorrow......!!!!!

P.S. I'd isolate that foul devils blend of powder for the time being, at least until I can ship some "yellow flakes" to you FedEx Mos' Schoss!

Reddog
10-02-2010, 10:24 AM
"5.5 grains of 700X at 884 FPS/17,500 CUP." Compare this to my chronographed velocity of 1,009 with 5.0 gr. 700X? I think it must be the powder? It was given to me by an old friend who is noted for picking up a bargain at every chance.
I noticed the striations on the primers. I just figured it was a difference in the hardness of the brass in the primers? The primer pockets in this batch of brass were crimped, so I swaged all of them with a carbide button. The primers seated normally.
One thing we might compare is the velocity of the 3.7 gr. load in the 38 Special loads with the 153 gr. bullet. Compare what that is next to the manuals you mention. I think I posted the chrono sheet from that load? If not, I still have the sheet.
I won't be loading any more 5.0 loads of this particular batch of powder in the .45 ACP. I didn't like what I read about cracked frames and such! Anyway, I've found that 4.5 gr. works well.
Dick

Reddog
10-02-2010, 12:52 PM
I couldn't find the 3.7gr. 700X sheet, so here it is again. Notice, the extreme spread taken off the chronograph doesn't match the actual high/low spread on the sheet. That's because the Chrony reads decimels on the velocities, but not on the extreme spread. Looks kind of strange, but doesn't actually make much difference, and is easier this way.
By the way, explain to me what "standard deviation" means. The Chrony spits that out, too?
Dick

Stevejet
10-02-2010, 07:23 PM
Dick - So, the "old friend bearing gifts" factor raises its ugly head in regards to the powder and its origin? A tawdry fact but one we must consider, nevertheless. Your eagle eye and keen mind are key in picking up a difference of a mere 125 FPS difference between the MAX manual and a mid-range real world velocities. Rather than flog this "pressure" beast like a rented mule, I checked my new 14 oz. containers of 700X and they were priced at $21.95. My advice....GET SOME NEW POWDER! I was encouraged to find that you treated the mil brass primer pockets like a professional. Use that brass 'til it gasps is my policy, but inspect and treat it before use is paramount.

Now....as to your twisted and thoughtlessly rude question as to the definition of "standard deviation" as produced by your chrony. FORGET IT! It's actually useless in terms of anything you can do to effect or control that hideous and perverted, manipulated number. I use to have to calculate Standard Deviations, the nasty buggers, and plot mean deviations for chemistry, physics and manufacturing engineering classes when I was trapped "in university" back in the mid 1970's. Once graduated I never - NEVER - had use for the term again, ever.

Today, in the sweet, twisted real world, "standard deviation" to me is an act, philosophy or attitude displayed by the typical deviant member of our FFF Posse, yours truly being a prime example only supremely overshadowed by the likes of Blammer, Popeye, and others of the long haul membership. You know....good folks....with a twist!

Anyway, now that the chrony is back "on station" be sure to publish results as you continue to seek the perfect reloading solution or blow yourself up. I'll have to redistribite the "yellow flakes" back into my "certifiable 700X" but don't concern yourself with my herculean efforts to accomplish this. BUY SOME NEW 700X POWDER YOU CHEAP SPROCKET!

Now be a good fellow and get back into form, like the quality "standard deviate" we all know you can be!

Reddog
10-03-2010, 10:39 AM
Steve,
No new powder! Even without the Mysterious Black 700X I have more powder than I'll ever be able to use!
Before I asked you about SD, I had Googled it and didn't understand it? The reason I asked was, I thought since Chrony thought it was necessary to reveal it, it might have some use. I'm going to forget about it!
Gotta get some shooting done!
Dick

Stevejet
10-03-2010, 02:01 PM
Look up Standard Deviation in a collegiate dictionary and if you possess any common sense you will rip out that page!

Reddog
10-04-2010, 01:57 AM
I've already forgotten it!

Reddog
10-18-2010, 12:52 AM
My, it's been dead around here for the last few days!
I did some chronograph work with the GP-100 and .38 Special, today. Surprisingly, the three loads I tested were all much faster than the same loads in my S&W 586 and 686? I'll try to post some data sheets tomorrow.
Dick

Stevejet
10-18-2010, 02:20 AM
Barrel materials (stainless vs. chrome-moly), bore finish and diameters always present factors that stir up "the mix" and produce different velocities. Throw in whatever influences chamber dimensions might present and garnish with various cylinder-to-forcing cone gaps you have and it's small wonder "chroney-heads" don't go insane in a very short time!

Reddog
10-18-2010, 09:13 PM
Check these out, Steve.
I don't believe I posted the sheet on the 3.5 gr. Bullseye trial in the 6" S&W 586. It clocked 786 fps and 210 ft. lbs.
Dick

Reddog
10-18-2010, 09:21 PM
I guess I didn't post the other two Reddot trials, either? The 6" 586 clocked 881 fps with 263 ft. lbs. and the 6" 686 clocked 875 fps with 260 ft. lbs.

Stevejet
10-19-2010, 12:54 AM
I used Unique and 700X, exclusively, for over 30 years and have never used any of the "Dot's" powders, not because I had reasons not to try them, I just didn't. Only since 2004 have I adopted Bullseye, TiteGroup & W231 into my reloading and as I don't have a chronograph (I accept the reloading manuals results without arguements), most all my handgun shooting is done off-hand and at cans rabbits and rocks, I really don't find any significant differences in accuracy or perceived velocity/power from any of these powders, with the exception of Bullseye which is power limited in my .44 Magnum and .45 Colt's due to large case capacity.

I have about 250 .38 Special brass that have only been fired in my .357 Blackhawk, and for this safety factor I have loaded some .38's that were probably pretty stiff and at the edge of sanity, all with 158 grain leads at about 960 FPS with power by Unique and 700X. Surprisingly, I have lost very few .38 cases to splis from work hardening, pressure or age. I have several thousand 3-D Brand 148 grain hollow-base wadcutters that when loaded are propelled at or near 900 FPS, according to manuals.

Your Red Dot velocities for the .38 look pretty impressive at slightly over 900 FPS for the heavy lead and it is my opinion that 900 FPS is required to give the .38 Special some snap and authority.

Good Chrony charts. It's intersting to see this type data from the shooting bench. Thanks.

Reddog
10-25-2010, 04:24 PM
Steve,
I've always felt the need to test my loads off the bench. Load five rounds of the recommended starting load and then load 5 more 1/2 grain higher and so on until I'm somewhere below the max recommended load. Then, I shoot all these on target, off the bench to see which is best. Afterwards, I'll probably chronograph that load.
The other day, on one of the forums, I read a story where there was a different method offered. His idea was to pick a powder and charge that gave the desired velocity with the bullet used. Then, vary the seating depth, primer and crimp until the accuracy improved. I suppose you could try different brands of cases, too. His theory was that you would use a lot less components to get the power load you wanted. I'm going to have to try that someday!
Dick

Stevejet
10-25-2010, 09:55 PM
WHAT?????????

That fellow on the other forum needs paragoric more than I do, but I'll be dammed if I'll share what I have with a looney like him. "Use a lot LESS components"? The twisted astuteness of that approach somehow escapes me and the rest of the reloading world!

Stick to what is proven, Dick, and don't let any of us at FFF get wind that you are deviating, standard or otherwise, from established procedures! If the lad's find out you have gone astray, I won't be responsible for the consequences they may visit upon you!

Reddog
10-25-2010, 11:44 PM
OK, Bubba!
I'll watch it!

Reddog
10-28-2010, 10:08 PM
Monday, I won a bid on a Lyman 358429 double cavity Keith mold on Ebay! It's a very old, round grease groove version, very beat up and rough! But, it casts a perfect cylindrical bullet, right at 172 grains with my lead. They drop from the mold easily, too. I had both versions of this bullet at one time, round and square groove, but let them both get away! A couple years ago I decided to narrow my mold collection down to a variety of the most used ones. I decided to keep the RCBS 162 SW because it was a gas check. Guess I forgot all the good shooting with the Keith bullet! Glad to get it back!
It arrived in the mail this AM, so I cast a couple hundred with it this PM! I have 50 rounds of Winchester brass primed and ready to put the powder in. The bullets are already greased with my Alox, lithium grease, beeswax lube. I think my old load was something like 12.0 grains 2400? But, I think I'll find something with a little less oomph this time.More of an all round fun load!
Stay tuned!
Dick
Come to think of it, that 12.0 - 2400 was in a .357 Mag. case!

Reddog
10-29-2010, 02:08 AM
Well, I got them loaded. 25 with 3.3 gr. 700X and the other 25 with 3.5 gr. 700X. I'll see how that works out tomorrow.
Dick

Reddog
10-29-2010, 08:45 PM
Stay on your toes, Boys!

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/159999-s-w-625-jm-catastrophic-failure-accident.html

Reddog
10-29-2010, 10:48 PM
I decided to try to use up some more of the 700X which lacks the yellow dots with my newly acquired, old mould. I loaded 25 each of 3.3 grains and 3.5 grains. The 3.3 load was much more accurate, so I shot an extra 5 rounds on a new target. Actually, there was only 22 fps and 13 ft. lbs. difference in the two, so that .2 grain of powder wasn't really needed, anyway! I'll take the best accuracy every time! It's a very pleasant shooting load at almost 800 fps!
Dick

Stevejet
10-30-2010, 04:07 AM
Well, Dick, those disintegrating guns are always "invigorating" to read about and it's always speculative to lay the blame or find root cause. I didn't pay much attention to seating depth being a player in some handgun cartridges until a fellow at Cast Boolits relayed information on .38 Special S&W's acting this way when full wadcutters were seated too deep by a reloader for a police departments practice ammo.

Changing gears, that heavy 173 grain mold seems to have produced some beauties in the accuracy department. I have had nothing but exceptional accuracy results with bullets cast from my Lyman mold for round nose, plain base 158 grain leads. I believe the mold is a Lyman #358311(?) but my alloy, which is heavy on wheel weight ingredient, casts the boolitz at 160 grains. Deadly missles in the accuracy department and I use Unique or 700X to get 900 FPS from my .38 Special reloads, all shot from a .357 Blackhawk (1976 Bicentennial production) with 4 5/8" barrel.

Again, thanks for the "chrony cerificates"!

Reddog
10-30-2010, 12:10 PM
Steve,
I roll crimp all my revolver rounds. Usually in the crimping groove, but I did have a double ended wadcutter for .38 that I seated flush for target shooting. I shot 2.8 Clays in it and never worried about pressure.
I used to have a four cavity 358311 and a dc RCBS, almost identical, but sold them both off when I trimmed back my collection. I do have the 358630 in the 200 grain version for extra heavy loads. I may sell it, though, now that I have the 358429. I've always prefered the semi-wads.
Dick

Reddog
10-30-2010, 06:57 PM
I had 15 rounds of the 3.5 gr./700X under the 172 gr. Keith bullet left, so I took them and a box of 200 gr. .357 Mag. RN loads out to chronograph in the GP-100. There is a definate difference in this gun and the S&W 686 I've been using. Both 6" barrels but the Ruger clocked 100 fps faster with 56 more foot pounds? You can see, they made a good group, too. Didn't get to try the 3.3 gr. load in this gun, but it doesn't look like the 3.5 load is broke so I better not try to fix it!
Just to prove the point, the 200 gr. round nose, .357 Mag loads with 9.3 gr. of Alliant 2400 clocked 98 fps faster with 89 more foot pounds of energy! Same loads? All I can figure is a tighter bore. Not quite as good a group as the other lighter load but plenty good for elephants!
Dick

Reddog
11-08-2010, 01:23 AM
Hey, Shooters!
Thought you might like to see two of the bullets I've been using for 38/357, lately! The center bullet is the RCBS 153 gr. semi-wad that I've really grown attached to for all around use, even target. The two outer bullets are the newly aquired, old mold #358429 by Lyman. It casts at 172 with my lead. They're advertised as 150 and 168 grain. They both are Keith style and have large grease grooves. The 153 is a square groove and the 172 is a round groove. I think the heavier bullet first came out with the round groove and later was changed to the square groove. I prefer the round bottomed groove!
Dick

Stevejet
11-08-2010, 02:01 AM
Typical Keith philosophy of design arrived at by emperically testing and testing. Sharp edge on the forward driving band enables the edge to "break" easily against the barrel forcing cone and more readily assure centering of the bullet. The broad center and rear bands provide good engraving by the barrel lands and impart good stability in flight.

Having obtained two-lifetimes worth of black Lyman Lube and thus having no experience with others, or need for that matter, I can't say that round or square lubrication grooves make any difference with handgun lead bullets. Rifle bullets may be significantly different, I don't know.

Machinist
11-08-2010, 03:35 AM
It's been a long time since I read it but I think Keith did not like the round grooves. If I recall he felt the spinning bullet might shed some of the lube in flight and become imbalanced. I think he felt the round groove did not hold it as well.

It was the mold makers that changed to the round grooves so the bullets would fill out easier but he didn't like it.

Again, this was one of his articles I read a long time ago, the late sixties or early seventies, so I could have this wrong.

Machinist
11-08-2010, 03:53 AM
Typical Keith philosophy of design arrived at by emperically testing and testing. Sharp edge on the forward driving band enables the edge to "break" easily against the barrel forcing cone and more readily assure centering of the bullet. The broad center and rear bands provide good engraving by the barrel lands and impart good stability in flight....

It really is a remarkable design. When one police department was switching to autos for political reasons (the city council did not want citizens traumatized by seeing revolver ammo on their belts) the city bought S&W Mod 39s in 9mm. The police Chief was concerned about performance so he went to the junkyard to test one on car doors. He was not happy to see the results. He tried a .45 with ball ammo (this was before the introduction of good JHPs) and still found it wanting so he had some loads made with SWCs. These punched through the coachwork with energy to spare. He arranged with a famous gunsmith to modify some 1911s to feed these swc loads and he wrote the thing up in a national magazine. The officers had to carry the Mod 39s for inspection but could buy and carry the modified .45s on duty.

The round nose bullet has the worst profile. It expends its energy stretching material or tissue rather than transferring that energy to the surrounding tissue. The stretched tissue closes up behind the bullet and restricts blood loss. The flat point on the SWC creates a shock wave that disrupts surrounding tissue while the sharp shoulder cuts off the tissue leaving a larger hole for blood loss or punching through steel without all the stretching that wastes energy, the same way it makes nice holes in paper. Quite a design for an old cowboy.

Reddog
11-08-2010, 08:40 AM
http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=24

Well, boys, I thought I had read it somewhere that the round groove came first, but, evidently not? I seem to remember something about the round groove not deforming or breaking on impact as easily as the square groove. Also, that the round groove dropped from the mold easier.
The link is to one of Glen Fryxll's articles. He mentions both the above bullets in it. He really knows his stuff!
Dick

Reddog
11-17-2010, 10:18 AM
I loaded another box of the 172 gr., last night, and checked the OAL. It's 1.5" when crimped in the groove. The 153 gr. measured 1.466".
Dick

Hey, Shooters!
Thought you might like to see two of the bullets I've been using for 38/357, lately! The center bullet is the RCBS 153 gr. semi-wad that I've really grown attached to for all around use, even target. The two outer bullets are the newly aquired, old mold #358429 by Lyman. It casts at 172 with my lead. They're advertised as 150 and 168 grain. They both are Keith style and have large grease grooves. The 153 is a square groove and the 172 is a round groove. I think the heavier bullet first came out with the round groove and later was changed to the square groove. I prefer the round bottomed groove!
Dick

Reddog
11-17-2010, 10:18 PM
I cast 150 more of the 172 grain Keith, today! Loaded 50 of them ahead of 12 gr. of 2400 in .357 Mag.. Will try to get them chronographed soon.
Temp got down to 35 today! It rained for a while and then turned to light snow for a couple hours. It was melting as it touched the ground. May get out tomorrow, if it's not too cold and wet! Stay tuned!
Dick

Reddog
11-18-2010, 10:14 PM
Well, Fellers!
I got my homework done! Low 40s and 15 mph winds were cold!
I chronographed 12.0 gr. 2400 with the 172 gr. SW 358429 bullet in the Ruger GP-100 and the S&W 686, both 6" barrels. I mean to tell you, that is a honkin' load! And the 49th. Lyman manual shows 13.5 grains max!
Notice that the GP-100 continues to show greater velocity and power than the 686, even with a different bullet. Also, notice the difference in accuracy in the two guns with this load! It really does pay to match the load to the gun! This is sure a lot easier to do if you reload!
Come to think of it, the shells fired in the GP-100 were loaded in all Federal cases. The shells fired in the 686 were mixed brands. I usually keep my brass sorted by make, but this box was all I had empty when I loaded these. That probably accounts for most of the spread!
I clocked 3.5 gr. of 700X behind the 172 gr. bullet in the .38 Special in both guns, too. Groups were terrible! Think I'll try that again at another time with Unique and Universal Clays.
Dick

Stevejet
11-19-2010, 12:10 AM
It's interesting, the almost 100 FPS difference between the two guns with the same powder load, bullet and both revolvers having 6" barrels. I have no experience with 2400 powder so I can't really speak to its characteristics. I doubt the brass would have any significant influence, seeing as how we are dealing with handgun pressures and the powder amounts are small in comparison to a rifles cartridge. So, I have a tendency to focus on pressure losses via cylinder-to-barrel gap and barrel diameter, rifling height and smoothness. Is either gun a stainless steel gat?

Anyway, the GP-100 looks close to being a "sniper", but the S&W isn't bad either.

I got your Care Package today! Did I mention I am extremely fond of "Brass" brass? 2 1/2 hours in the Lyman vibro-polisher and they appear to be new. The little babes are all nestled confortably in el primo Twin-60 Loading Blocks by Flambeau where they can rest as I ponder the Unique, 700X and TiteGroup fuel possibilities. Thanks a ton, Dick.

Reddog
11-19-2010, 12:26 AM
You're welcome, Bud! Let me know if you need more! I like the looks of unplated brass. Especially when it's clean. I've read that it's hardier, too.
Both of those guns are stainless. Of the two, the 686 is usually the most accurate.
Got to hit the sack early. Catch you tomorrow evening!
Dick

Reddog
11-19-2010, 08:41 PM
I just had a thought! I wonder what would happen if I pumped that 2400 load up to near Max for use in the 686? Maybe I could get the velocity up to near what the GP-100 did, and hopefully the accuracy would improve! Could be wishfull thinking, too!
Dick

Reddog
11-19-2010, 10:13 PM
Just read an article in the back of an old Guns magazine by John Taffin. He tells about his first big bore handgun being a Ruger Flattop .357 Magnum and how he loaded it with 13.5 gr. of 2400 behind the 358429 bullet in a .38 Special case. Wonder what that would be like to shoot? Give it a try, Steve, and let us know how it goes.
Dick

Reddog
11-22-2010, 03:22 PM
Earlier, some one mentioned that the round groove might not hold lube as well. That has turned out to be true. I've been finding small splatters of lube, ocassionally, on the target and backstop. Not a lot, but it's definately lube! I tried to wipe one off. Big smear! But, I've not had any leading so it's not a big deal!
Dick

Stevejet
11-23-2010, 03:42 AM
Alright, ol' chum. Evidently the snow and cold have dulled what what would normally be your sharp intellect. Your two latest entries of note have posed a couple of foul and twisted postulations that are not even worth consideration, so we'll take them in the order presented.

First, though I find John Taffin's writings often informative and amusing, he is a delusional devotee to the .44 Special, a cartridge in search of a purpose. I have examined my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (Third Edition) just to focus on the Keith #358429 bullet (an abundance of which you were very kind to provide me with) and the Lyman book doesn't even list 2400 powder for any of the .38 Special loads. I have to thumb pages ahead to the .357 Magnum to find a listing for the #358429 bullet powered by 2400, and lo and behold.....there's a MAXIMUM recommended load of 13.5 grains of 2400. And.....it only developes 41,100 C.U.P.! Indeed. Why NOT try to duplicate that dingbat Taffin's narrow escape experiment, 13.5 grains of 2400 in a .38 Special case? Who's afraid of a small pressure spike? I wouldn't need a Chrony, but a containment shield might be adviseable. 41,100 C.U.P versus the Lyman listing of 16,900 C.U.P. MAX for a .38 Special using the #358429 bullet over 4.6 grains of W231? I'll send you a post card describing my results with the 2400 powder AFTER I hire one of our uninvited illegal immigrant "guests" to serve as my lab assistant. By the way ol' Pard, in that gun magazine article by the bearded wonder, Mr. Taffin, just what were HIS observations of the load you proscribe for ME to try? Hmmmmm?

Now, as to wether the round grease groove or square groove holds lube better? Well let's put on our thinking foil caps and rub them with a piece of cat fur, loaded with a considerable static charge, okay? Think of the lube, any type, commercial or home-brewed, as behaving like the paper wrapped around a patched lead rifle bullet. What happens to the paper wrapped around the bullet is the same thing our bullet lube experiences, within reason. Both the paper patch and the lube are confined between the barrel I.D. surface and the bullet, that is, neither escapes while on the bullets journey down the barrel. With .38/357 handguns having barrels with "typical" Twist of 1-18 3/4" rotation, I don't imagine the lube escaping due to being centrifuged at such a slow rotational speed, after exiting the muzzle, is really an issue seeing as how the lube has done its job. So what gives in your neck o' the woods, you required to issue an Environmental Impact Statement as regards in-flight loss of lead bullet lube? If so, just tell the "authorities" the lube oxidizes (due to being centrifuged at collosal rotational speed, honest) and it thus aids in replenishment of the local ozone layer. Typical government environment bureaucrats are lame idiots and will not dispute any "weird science" explaination delivered with the proper amount of false and energetic conviction. Remember, in these cases of dealing with the Wrong Ones, it doesn't matter that you gave your word, it only matters who you give it to!

Well, I need to go recruit a "lab assistant" if this "handload from hell" thing is going to be moved forward. So, stay out of the cold and close to your melting pot, it's just better for you. Best regards.

Reddog
11-23-2010, 05:34 PM
Well, Stevo, surely you realize I was just kidding about using 13.5 gr. 2400 in a .38 Special case? I know that is over max, alltho, Taffin may not have when he was 18 years old. On the other hand, he may have just confused the max load in .357 Mag. with the .38 Special? Especially, when you consider his advanced age. (He's only three years younger than I!)
I did research some old manuals, though, and did find some 2400 loads for .38 Special.
In the RCBS Cast Book #1 (1986), I found a load of 9.3 gr. 2400 with their RNGC, 175 gr., and a magnum primer showing 945 FPS in a .38 Special case. I found that odd because I've been using that same 9.3 grains of 2400 and Lyman's 358430 at 200 grains with a standard primer in a .357 case, and getting 974 FPS? This was in the Ruger GP-100.

In the Lyman #44 manual, (1967), I found a load of 10.5 gr. 2400 with their 358429, 168 gr. and standard small pistol primer at 1005 FPS in .38 Special.
Also in that same book they listed 9.5 gr. 2400, Lyman bullet 358430 at 195 grains and standard primer at 893 FPS in a .38 special case. Similar to the .357 load I've been using, also, only slower.
Dick

Reddog
11-24-2010, 06:41 PM
I hope to get in lots of shooting on this long weekend, as well as overeating! Hope you all get to do the same!
Dick

Reddog
11-26-2010, 01:06 PM
I had a good Thanksgiving! Found a 6" HP! Probably paid too much, but ---------! I have wood stocks for it. More pics when I get it!
Dick:D

Reddog
11-30-2010, 12:30 AM
Well, since I'm the only one posting on here, here's another little goodie I picked up during the Thanksgiving holiday! It's a Model 10 with an extra set of custom stocks!
I haven't received either of these newly acquired Smiths yet, but will post more about them when I do.
Going to sell my GP-100 so I can buy another Smith!
Dick

Machinist
11-30-2010, 02:15 AM
Really love the Mod 28. I hope to find one with a 4" barrel someday, but I would like a 6" as well. It is a great feel for a heavy .357.

That Mod 10 looks like fun. I like Hogue grips on S&Ws and those look good.

Nice Christmas for you, it seems.

Stevejet
11-30-2010, 03:10 AM
Sorry Dick. I've been busy literally chasing down "latino lab assistants" to assist me with testing of the "Double Dare .38 Special Load from Hell" plus entertaining my Mummsie-in Law and second grandchild (and his parents, of course) during the "holiday".

Nice looking S&W Model 10 gat.

Be prepared, the Glockster is in the grasp of a 1911 buying fever and is looking at Para's and quite possibly an R1 Remington. I sicced (sic'd....sp...?) him onto you.

Gotta get Mummsie to the airport for a return to Minnesota tommorow, after which I can resume both communications and the hunting chase for a lab assistant! Regards, Stevejet.

Reddog
11-30-2010, 04:52 AM
Machinist,
Those do look like Hogue grips! But, the fellow selling the Mod. 10 called them vintage Rogers Combat. I have a pair of Hogue's similar to this on my 686.
I'm excited about the pre 28, too! I have several sets of S&W "N" frame grips to replace the rubber Hogues with. I'm hoping to make this Highway Patrolman and the 686 my main shooters.
Steve,
I figured you were off partying for the holiday, some way! We had some family here for a meal on Saturday, too. Just the son who lives close and his son and wife. The others are all in the KC area. We feel lucky to get them all here for Christmas.
Haven't heard anything from Glockster, yet?
Dick

Machinist
11-30-2010, 09:16 AM
My error! I did not see the screw hole in the left panel. Very nice.

Reddog
11-30-2010, 05:36 PM
I didn't realize that was a screw, either. I thought it was just a blemish until I enlarged it. That emblem looks familiar, too, but can't think where I've seen it?

Reddog
12-02-2010, 12:33 AM
Hey, all you Silent Ones!
Got out today with my slick old Mod. 27 and the chronograph! Chronographed 3 different loads to compare results with the 686. For all intents and purposes, they're identical. I'll only post one fact sheet and one target. Accurate enough for me!
Maybe next time I get to the range I'll have either the Highway Patrolman or Mod. 10 to tryout!

I got a surprise with this load! I've always understood that the 358429 Keith bullet seated to the crimping groove in a .357 Magnum case was too long for the Mod. 27 cylinder and it woudn't be able to rotate? Fired 10 rounds with no problem!
Dick

PS - Rifle season opened for deer, here, today!

Reddog
12-03-2010, 10:05 PM
Got out again, yesterday, with the Mod. 27. Did some fine tuning on the sights. Much better now! Hope the Highway Patrolman shows up at my dealer tomorrow! Anxious to give it at a good cleaning and see how it shoots!
Looks like today may be our last nice day for a while! No chance to shoot, though, had to be in town all day. Drat!
Dick

Stevejet
12-04-2010, 12:32 AM
Well Dick, you seem to be fatally fixated with that 2400 powder, the economics of which, by that I mean grains required to almost meet Mach 1 requirements, are just beyond me. The accuracy is good as it depicts little windage or horizontal pull which I abhor in a heater.

Perhaps you might cure your aversion to hitting the bullseye if it weren't, you know, .....pink!

I've opted to go with all four of my reliables in loading the "Keith's" you sent. Can't get away from Unique, 700X, TiteGroup and W231. With the 272 brass you sent I think I may opt for 40 or 50 loadings in the low 800 to high 700 FPS range with Bullseye, never having loaded real heavy and slow leads for "accuracy only" purposes.

The energy of 500+ lbs from your Chrony Data Sheet really gleens respect for the .357 Magnum and that Keith bullet shape would be toxic on any game that wandered into its path.

Think about changing that bullseye color....really, OK?

Reddog
12-04-2010, 01:39 AM
Steve,
I found that 2400 was extra accurate in the .357 several years ago. Not just in one gun! Most that I've tried it in, and I have several. Not long after that, I had an opportunity to buy an almost full keg at a bargain. I still have 2 or 3 pounds of it. I don't load or shoot a lot of it. Actually, I only have a couple hundred .357 cases, so will load mostly .38 Special with other powders.

As to the pink centers, they're actually Hot Orange price stickers! I bought several packs and like to add them to my homemade targets. Just an aiming point. When I scan the targets for posting, my cheap scanner looses something in the process, hence, PINK!

I like all the powders you mention, except Titegroup, and that exception only because I've never used it. I like 2.8 gr. of Bull or 231 with a 148 gr. wad for target. You'll probably need 3 or 3.5 to reach 800. 700X is doing well for me, too. Unique seems to be good in almost anything!

500 ft. lbs. is impressive! That's approaching the loads I've been using in the .41 Magnum with a 220 gr. bullet! Probably putting a little more strain on the gun, though.

I hope my newly acquired Highway Patrolman will equal this Mod. 27 in accuracy. I don't know why it wouldn't? It's almost the exact same gun, other than finish. It will save a lot of wear and tear on the 27, if so. Hoping it will come in tomorrow! If not, Monday then.
Dick

Reddog
12-04-2010, 10:10 PM
The HP didn't show.

Stevejet
12-04-2010, 10:21 PM
Ain't that how it almost always is? Well, stick close to home, cast some more leads and refrain from getting into a pre-Christmas alcohol or narcotic induced funk. Monday is here soon enough.

Work on changing out those "pink bullseyes" for crying out load!

Reddog
12-05-2010, 01:33 AM
Steve,
Surely you've heard of "Black is beautiful"? If so, you must understand that "Pink is perfect"?
Dick

Stevejet
12-05-2010, 02:31 AM
Spare me.........

Reddog
12-05-2010, 12:27 PM
It was 26 when I got up this morning! Think I'll cast a few bullets!

Reddog
12-06-2010, 12:34 AM
Well, I did cast 200 bullets with the 358429, 172 grain 38 mold and 150 of the RCBS 200 grain 45 bullet and got them all greased!
Tomorrow I hope to go pick up the Highway Patrolman! Hot dog!
Dick

Stevejet
12-06-2010, 03:14 AM
Try to contain yourself or you might bump into a warm lead melter.

Reddog
12-06-2010, 11:37 AM
OK, Boss!
19 this morning! Brrrr!! May have to cast again!

Reddog
12-07-2010, 01:44 AM
Finally, here it is!
A 6", 5 screw, pinned and recessed Highway Patrolman, serial # S1333XX from '54-'55. It's not been shot much but needed a good cleaning. The stocks aren't matched and maybe not the right style, but were all I had to replace the rubber Hogues that someone had put on it. They're nice to shoot but not much to look at! It has very slight blue wear on the barrel and is otherwise 90%, or better, I think. I plan to keep it as a shooter! I ran 10 rounds of the 153 SW/3.7-700X through it this afternoon just to check it. It shoots great and has a trigger pull of just under four pounds.
It's a twin for my Mod. 27, except for the front sight and the finish! And the pinned and recessed and the firing pin on the hammer. Maybe not quite a twin? Anyway, I like it!
Dick

Machinist
12-07-2010, 01:49 AM
Very nice. Excuse my envy!

Stevejet
12-07-2010, 03:02 AM
That is a beautiful revolver, Dick. Now....remember when your mommy use to run a string of yarn from your mittens thru the arms of your coat so you wouldn't lose 'em? Well.....put a lanyard on that beauty so you don't drop and lose it in the snow! I have a feeling you will be spending quite some time outdoors this winter with your new toy, so precautions are in order.

Reddog
12-07-2010, 01:38 PM
OK, Daddy!
Actually, at my age, I don't go out to play in the snow much anymore. But, I'll be careful!
Daddy, how come I'm older than you?
Dick

Reddog
12-08-2010, 12:33 AM
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/166194-hiway-patrolman-find.html

It seems that I may have done better than I thought on the Highway Patrolman! Check out the above thread.

Looks like tomorrow is a shooting day! 50 and light breezes! Boy o boy o boy!
Dick

PS - The Mod. 10 shipped today!

Reddog
12-08-2010, 07:19 PM
Did get out today! I put 35 rounds through the Highway Patrolman and the Model 27, each, for comparison. I think the trigger on the 27 is a little lighter but the HP held it's own! I put the Hogue foam grips back on. I think I like the fit to my hand a little better and they are comfortable. Don't care much for the looks, though.
I did a little sight adjustment after this target. There are 4 holes in that little group in the center.

Reddog
12-10-2010, 01:30 PM
Well, since I'm the only one posting on here, here's another little goodie I picked up during the Thanksgiving holiday! It's a Model 10 with an extra set of custom stocks!
I haven't received either of these newly acquired Smiths yet, but will post more about them when I do.
Going to sell my GP-100 so I can buy another Smith!
Dick

This gun arrived in my dealer's town today, but I won't be able to pick it up! It turns out the dealer's mother died, so he will be in Missouri until next week and the PO is holding the gun for his return. Sad to hear about his mother!
Dick

Reddog
12-12-2010, 09:14 AM
Helloooooo, out there?

Machinist
12-12-2010, 10:08 AM
I like Hogue grips on the N frames. If the rubber bothers you the wood looks much better. You can get them plain or checkered and in different woods. They do cost more than the rubber though.

Reddog
12-12-2010, 01:18 PM
I have a pair of Hogue wood grips like these, only uncheckered, on my 686. I also have a set for my Mod.29. I'll keep these rubber Hogues for shooting because they are a better fit, but keep the wood S&W's for show. If I can find a set of what came out on the HP, originally, I may do that for show.
These rubber Houges have the S&W logo imprinted on them so I suppose they must have come off another newer gun?

Machinist
12-12-2010, 08:56 PM
I think you are right. I have some uncheckered wood grips that look nice but they are too slick when the hand sweats. I like the checkered wood but they are expensive so I mostly use the rubber ones on my K, L, and N frames. The Hogues are the only ones that give me proper control for DA shooting with the N frames. They are near perfect with the K.

Are you looking for the Magna grips for the HP?

Wolfhunter
12-12-2010, 09:00 PM
Nice looking revolvers and some dem fine shootin' too

Machinist
12-12-2010, 09:20 PM
By the way, it is a good thing the Hogues are newer. The old ones required you remove the cross pin in the grip frame.

Reddog
12-12-2010, 10:35 PM
Thanks, Wolf!

Machinist,
Glad to hear about the newer Hogues! They are easier to change than the ones on my .44. I like the checkered Hogues better too, but like you say, more money! I am looking for a set of magnas. Do you have some you want to get rid of?
I picked up a Model 28 from 1959, today. Newer, but used a little more and a good price! If it's solid I'll probably use it for a shooter and put the HP up.
Dick

Machinist
12-13-2010, 12:32 AM
PM sent.

Very nice! I am hoping to find a reasonable 6" .357 N frame a little later when I have a few bucks. You are on a roll.

Stevejet
12-15-2010, 04:49 AM
The ".38 Special Round from Hell" made an appearance in the February 2011 issue of GUNS magazine. It appears in -who else - John Taffin's Campfire Tales article on page 82, last full paragraph, and I quote..."Just as with the .357 Blackhawk the Highway Patrolman was used with the Keith #358429 loaded over 13.5 grains of 2400 in .38 Special brass."

At least he was using a .357 Magnum to launch those hot babies into the ozone.

Reddog
12-15-2010, 10:55 AM
Hey, Steve!
Been wondering about you?
That load would be a bit much for me, even in a .357 case! I've looked through all my manuals and that's about 3 grains hotter than anything I can find recommended for a .38 Special case.

Reddog
12-15-2010, 01:28 PM
Hope to pick up the Model 10 this afternoon! And the 28 should be here Friday! I'm gonna be in Smith and Wesson heaven!

Reddog
12-15-2010, 10:44 PM
Well Fellers!
I picked up the Mod 10, tonight! It turned out nicer than I expected. It's from 1962 and has some blue wear and a few flecks of rust that's been cleaned up. Slight blue wear at the muzzle and one rub, wear spot on the sideplate near the trigger. It's tight and doesn't look to be fired much. It has a good trigger, haven't measured the weight of pull yet. The only bad part is that the custom stocks turned out to be genuine imitation plastic! They're comfortable, though, and would probably be nice to shoot with. The $350 I paid, shipped, was a plenty!
The original stocks are numbered to match. I had allowed about $25.00 for the custom stocks when I figured what it was worth, but that turned into 5 or 6 bucks! It's a keeper, though. I'll shoot a few rounds through it, tomorrow, and see how that works.
Dick

Machinist
12-16-2010, 01:15 AM
I think all the Rogers are plastic. Are you looking for a set of Magna grips for it?

Don't throw away the Rogers.

That looks interesting with the longer barrel. Classic or retro.

Reddog
12-16-2010, 10:50 AM
I won't!

Stevejet
12-17-2010, 12:07 AM
That looks like the gun held in the hand and fired during the opening scenes from the "Faster than a speeding bullet" Superman television series. And if I'm not mistaken, more than a few pugs threw guns like that at Superman after richoceting a cylinder-full off his brawny American chest. That never worked, either!

Reddog
12-17-2010, 01:16 AM
Steve,
I remember those TV shows! I remember the Superman Comics even better. When I was four or five years old my mother started taking me to a bookstore in Hutchinson that traded comics two for one. It was great fun going through stacks looking for one I hadn't seen yet. They were only 10 cents new then, so I got to buy one now and then. Wish I'd hung on to them! Captain Marvel was the other popular one.
I shot the Mod. 10, today. It handled the 3.7 gr. 700X well. It liked 3.0 gr. of Clays with the 153 gr bullet, too. The gun seems so dainty compared to the N frames! Such a difference in recoil from the bigger guns! But I managed to keep them all in the 9 ring, offhand! It shot a couple inches high so I held the bottom of the 9 ring and it was fine. There's sure a big difference in the fixed sights and the others! It's a keeper! One more thing. I believe this gun has the highest gloss blue of them all!
The other 28 shipped from Illinois today. Should have it by Monday!
Dick

Reddog
12-18-2010, 09:15 PM
Hey Shooters!
My friend and fellow FFF member, Machinist, fixed me up with a set of proper magna stocks for my Highway Patrolman at a price I couldn't resist! Looks good! Thanks, Jeff!
Yesterday and today I cast another round of RCBS 153 gr. SW and 358429 172 gr. SW. Glad to have them on hand because it looks like I'm going to be shooting a lot of .38 and.357!
Merry Christmas everyone!
Dick

Machinist
12-18-2010, 10:29 PM
A real classic! I think I'd want at least a grip adapter to fill behind the trigger guard but that does look great. An iconic Trooper's revolver.

Reddog
12-18-2010, 10:55 PM
I never did like those grip adapters! Before I'd do that I would go back to the Hogues or the Targets. Actually, these feel pretty good. I'll be shooting mostly .38 Special, so the recoil shouldn't be too bad! Think I'll leave them on for a while and see how they work out.
I found out that the Mod. 28 I'm expecting left Wichita at 3:30 this AM and made 50 miles to Hutchinson, where it will lounge until it gets the last 30 miles to my FFL out here at 9:30 AM Monday! Isn't our government service just wonderful!

Machinist
12-19-2010, 12:45 AM
That's great.

As to government service, definitely a model for emergency medical care, isn't it. :down:

caneman
12-19-2010, 11:52 AM
Hey Reddog, my best friends wife was raised in Hutchinson. Great gal and my friend is just as great.

I'm wanting to start some loading for a .32 Magnum as soon as my brass arrives in March. I was leaning towards Trailboss but maybe a shotgun powder would be as good or better. The "Dot" powders are usually easier to find around here.

Reddog
12-19-2010, 01:11 PM
Hey, Caneman!
Hutch is my home town, too. Lived there all my life up until about 30 years ago. What was this gal's maiden name?
I haven't ever used Trailboss? But, from what I read, everyone seems to like it. I had a .32 S&W years ago, but never a Magnum? Most shotgun powders do work in pistol cartridges. Just get a good loading manual and do as it says. What gun are you going to load for? Keep us posted!
Dick
PS - Looks like another shooting day here! 50 and light breezes!

caneman
12-19-2010, 02:03 PM
Her maiden name was Brenda Simon and she has a sister, Julie. Brenda is a sweetee. Haven't met Julie.

I'll be loading it for a Ruger Single Six in .32 Magnum. It's a size even my wifes small hands can grip, but it's about max size for her. She shoots with me occasionally but small hand size pretty much limits her to .22's normally. Even with the regular round butt J frame Smiths she has to cock her hand around the side a little.

On the other hand, the Single Six is about the smallest grip size I can shoot comfortably. The good (OR BAD) thing is that with the onset of arthritis the .32 is about as much as I'm comfortable shooting. I still want to load up some big bore slow punkin balls though and see how I do with them.

Reddog
12-19-2010, 03:20 PM
Don't know any Simons? I'll ask my son. She might have been more his age.
My wife has small hands. I started her out on a K-38 and eventually she could outshoot me, even with a .41 Mag.! She's about given up shooting now, though! At age 73 she's concentrating more on being a grandmother. Not me! I still want to ride and shoot like Gene Autry did when I was a kid!
Good luck with your .32 Mag! Why do you have to wait until March on your brass?
Dick

Reddog
12-19-2010, 05:25 PM
Hey, Jeff!
Those stocks made this Highway Patrolman into a real shooter! Check this out! Standby load, 3.7-700x and 153 RCBS SW!
Dick

Machinist
12-19-2010, 05:46 PM
Excellent! But we both know that it is not stocks that give those results. Nice shooting and good loads. My compliments. It is good to see the stocks get used and enjoyed. They have been sitting for years and would not have gotten used.

Reddog
12-20-2010, 09:15 AM
Well, Fellas!
I'm supposed to pick up the 1959 Highway Patrolman in a couple hours! Really anxious to see what condition it's in! I expect a little blue wear, but hopefully not too much! Stay tuned!
Dick

Machinist
12-20-2010, 11:18 AM
Please excuse my envious green!

Reddog
12-20-2010, 02:21 PM
Well, Jeff!
You can color me BLUE! The gun didn't show up at my FFL? The only thing I can figure is that the Hutchinson PO is covered up with Christmas mail? Maybe tomorrow. May have to take a nap to get out of the BLUE FOG!

Machinist
12-20-2010, 02:32 PM
I can't say I'm too surprised this close to Christmas. Doesn't mean I don't understand your disappointment though. At least you have other new toys to distract you.

Hope it shows up tomorrow.

Reddog
12-20-2010, 10:05 PM
It turns out that this gun is from 1960, rather than 1959? Oh well. Just that much less wear, I guess!

Thanks, Wolf!

Machinist,
Glad to hear about the newer Hogues! They are easier to change than the ones on my .44. I like the checkered Hogues better too, but like you say, more money! I am looking for a set of magnas. Do you have some you want to get rid of?
I picked up a Model 28 from 1959, today. Newer, but used a little more and a good price! If it's solid I'll probably use it for a shooter and put the HP up.
Dick

Reddog
12-21-2010, 06:04 PM
Finally got the 28 this afternoon! Must be a lot of gun giving going on for Christmas? It took forever to get it cleared with the Feds! Now to get it cleaned up and fix up some of the wear and tear. Will post pics when I get done.
Dick

Machinist
12-21-2010, 08:09 PM
Looking forward to it. I hope it shoots well enough to make the hassle well worth it.

Reddog
12-22-2010, 12:03 AM
Hey Shooters!
Here it is! Cleaned it good. Did a little touch up with some Birchwood Casey Cold Blue. Good stuff! Now, we'll see how long it holds up, because this is probably going to be one of my everyday shooters! The worst spot was on the bottom of the S&W logo on the right side. Hardly shows! May do some more later on the cylinder.
The diamond magnas aren't numbered to the gun but fit perfect. They look like they're plastic, but they're not? Actually, it looks like someone might have brushed them down with a wire brush, with the grain, and removed some of the softwood? I think the gun has spent a lot of time in the saddle but not much on the range? Might have been a Cop gun back when?
Maybe I can remedy the range time, tomorrow! It's supposed to be down in the 40s, but I think I can stand it for a couple targets! See how it likes the 3.7 - 700X load.
I also put that trigger shoe that came with the other HP on this one.
I'll get a target posted tomorrow.
Dick

Machinist
12-22-2010, 03:06 AM
Very nice! We are back to green.

Reddog
12-22-2010, 05:08 PM
Well, I did get out! But it only got up to 32 with a windchill of 28! I shot enough to see that it was shooting low with the 3.7 load, but it was too cold to try to shoot a decent target. I'll have to try later, but there's a chance of snow the next two days, and still down in the 30s Christmas and will have family that Saturday and Sunday, so it'll probably be a while!
I forgot to mention that the trigger pull is 3.75 lbs, about the same as the other HP. I think I'll put the rubber Hogues on this gun.
Time to go down and touch up with the cold blue on the cylinder a little and try to get warm!
Dick

Reddog
12-24-2010, 01:21 AM
Out again, today, still 32! But, I only shot 2 targets.
Found this last Mod. 28 seems to be shaving lead pretty bad on one chamber. It causes the cylinder to drag on the rear of the barrel in that area. Have to find out what I need to do about that?
Decided to try the Hogues for shooting. Finished the blue touch up and it came out pretty good!
Merry Christmas, All!
Dick

Stevejet
12-24-2010, 05:43 AM
Merry Christmas, Dick and thanks for the communications, posts, bullets, brass, chrony charts and humor. Looking forward to see how you get the "shaving lead feature" taken of.

Reddog
12-24-2010, 09:00 AM
Thanks, Steve!
It is strange to me that it would be only one chamber? While I'm trying to figure out how to get it fixed, I think I'll try loading just the other five chambers and see what happens. Isolate it.
Dick

After a day's study on the S&W Forum (excellent, knowledgeable info there!) I've pretty well pinned the problem down to cylinder end shake and insufficient clearence between the barrel and cylinder! I should have the parts before New Years, so stay tuned!

Reddog
12-27-2010, 10:20 AM
Hey Shooters!
Did you have a good Christmas Day with your family? I did, and also managed to load 100 rounds of .38 Special with the 358429 bullet and 3.5 gr. of 700X!
It's supposed to be in the high 30s, today, so hope to get out shooting for a while. Also, today or tomorrow, I plan to cast a large quantity of bullet #358430 at 200 grains. Then I'll sell that mold. I figure the 358429 will serve most of my needs for a heavy bullet, now.
The parts for the Mod. 28 should be here Wednesday. I'm going to install an .004" end shake washer and see if that doesn't change the cylinder/barrel clearance? From what I've read, that might even help the lead splatter on the front face of the cylinder. Something about how the cylinder aligns with the barrel. Hope so!
Dick

Reddog
12-27-2010, 10:47 PM
Well, I mean't to do some shooting, today, but I was kind of dragging from such a busy time the last two days. 40s, tomorrow and light breese, maybe?
But, I did load another 50 .38 Special, 153 SW and 3.7 - 700X, plus casting about 200 of 358430 RN! Guess the day wasn't a total loss.
Midway dropped an e-mail to say the washers shipped , yesterday, which probably really means this morning!
Dick

Machinist
12-28-2010, 12:07 AM
A lot to look forward to.

Stevejet
12-28-2010, 12:30 AM
At first read it seemed odd that only one chamber would exhibit lead spatter on the cylinder face, in light of the tight cylinder-to-barrel gap you described. But a bit of saner thought suggests that one of the six chambers will be most perfectly aligned (indexed) with the barrel and another will be the worst for alignment. I hope it's not a timing problem but is rather the offending chamber punishing the forcing cone more than the five others and the fact of the cylinder-to-barrel gap being too tight and probably exhibiting more blow-by than would normally be expected.. Don't keep us in suspense....get those "classified shims" installed pronto and blaze away!

Reddog
12-28-2010, 01:37 AM
I am anxious to get it fixed, Jeff!
Think I'll shoot my 686, tomorrow!
Steve, I searched 'cylinder drag" and cylinder endshake" over on the Smith & Wesson Forum and found several instances of almost the exact symptoms on other guns and the fix was cylinder washers. Guess I'm going to find out.
I got the 358430 bullets lubed and listed the mold on E-Bay for sale.
Dick

Stevejet
12-28-2010, 03:59 AM
You shameless, productive, capitalist!

Reddog
12-28-2010, 12:51 PM
Yeah! I'm trying to raise a few sheckels for gunpowder! I've only got about 38 pounds left!

Reddog
12-28-2010, 05:40 PM
Well, Old Shooters!
Out at 49 and within 30 minutes the sun went behind a cloud and the temp dropped to 42! That's Kansas!
This target is a good example of why I don't shoot offhand much anymore! Although, right before this, I shot an offhand target that had a nice little 1.5" cluster of holes right at the top of the 9 ring! The catch is, there were only four holes! I have no idea where the fifth went?
Had a lot of fun, though! Stayed out till my fingers got too cold.

Gun: 6" S&W 686
Load: 148 full wad #35863 Lyman, seated flush
2.8 gr. Clays
WSP Primer
Federal .38 Special case
25 yards, Weaver stance.

Anyone else doing any handgun shooting?

Reddog
12-29-2010, 01:23 AM
I checked with USPS tracking tonight, and found out the Midway package with the washers passed through Wichita at 9 PM. Don't know whether it will stop in Hutchinson or make it all the way to Arlington? Hope it makes it all the way!
So, I decided to learn how to disassemble a cylinder, tonight. (By the way, Jeff, the extractor rod on this one has right hand threads. Apparently, there was a change sometime in the early '50s.) There are sure a lot of springs and do-dads inside that thing! Not much dirt inside but some old, really black, oil Maybe tomorrow I'll be able to install a washer and see if it makes a difference.
It's supposed to be up around 50, tomorrow, with some wind. Keep your fingers crossed!
Dick

Reddog
12-29-2010, 05:10 PM
The package arrived this morning! Since I had completely disassembled the cylinder last night, today I oiled the innerds with Rem Oil and dropped a washer in and put it back together.
Then, since we have a misty, damp day, I went to the backporch, under a roof, and fired 25 rounds into the woodpile. You can see the difference in the lead on the face of the cylinder in the attached picture. Ignore my dirty hand! This job is so simple it would be a shame not to have done it! The only thing I would do different would be to order .002" washers instead of .004". The .004" worked OK on my gun. There is no endshake and the barrel/cylinder eyeballs to be about .005". No drag, at all! I haven't been down to check it yet but will post when I do. I would rather have .002"s because they can be used in multiples, and if I had needed less I'd have been up the crick! You're required to buy a pack of 10, anyway! Hooray!
Dick
It checked out at .004".

Stevejet
12-29-2010, 09:18 PM
Dick - Have you performed a "feeler gage" cylinder-to-barrel gap check in all six cylinder positions? Just for satisfaction of curiousity?

Reddog
12-29-2010, 09:25 PM
Not yet, but I will!

Reddog
12-29-2010, 10:37 PM
They are all between .004" and .005". One chamber is just a little tight on .005". What does that mean?

Machinist
12-30-2010, 12:38 AM
They are all between .004" and .005". One chamber is just a little tight on .005". What does that mean?

That sounds excellent. If you get much less you can get drag from any buildup of residue or lead. This effects the DA pull and puts excessive wear on the hand and ratchet.

One thing I would do is check different parts of the barrel to make sure it is consistent left to right and top to bottom. This is not always the case. Doing this for just one chamber should be fine.

Stevejet
12-30-2010, 01:34 AM
Blaze away! Those are good clearances.

Reddog
12-30-2010, 12:46 PM
It seems to be pretty even, Jeff.
Steve, I intend to, shortly! The temp is up to 60, although with a 15 mph breeze! It's from the southwest, so shouldn't affect much on my range. I got lucky! I was supposed to go to town, today, but had an unexpected change. 60 and sun, today, and there is a possibility of snow, tomorrow! Lucky me! I'll try to get a couple targets posted later.
Dick

Machinist
12-30-2010, 02:00 PM
Excellent!!

Reddog
12-30-2010, 08:46 PM
I had this all done, once! Then, when I previewed it, I closed from there instead of submitting it! Grrr!
I took the S&W Mod. 28 out about 2 pm. By then the temperature had climbed to 64 with bright sun! The wind was about 15 mph but from the southwest, which is the best direction when I'm shooting on my home range. Hardly noticeable! Of course, the wind switched around to the NNW and the temp had dropped to 58 by the time I quit shooting.
I started out shooting several practice rounds with the three loads that I had brought, and then shot a 5 round target with each load for record and they were terrible! I checked the screws and everything was as it should be? The only thing I could see was a thin film of lead on one chamber, but it was a different chamber than before? Didn't understand that, but continued practice and adjusting the sights. Finally, I shot one more 5 round target with each load. They looked more like what I was looking for! I was struck by the similarity of the 700X and Unique targets!
So, I shot several rounds offhand at an iron swinging target that I have set up at 25 yards and then finished up with a 10 round 700X target. After this last target I tweaked the sights to center the 700X load. What ever was wrong at first must have fixed it's self? I never did find anything loose?
I'm satisfied now. These loads weren't developed for this gun. I'm getting too many .38/.357 guns to have a load for each one. At one time I would have worked up a load or two just for this gun. I'll use the same loads in all of them. Of course, I won't use heavy loads in the K frames and if I find a certain load that just won't work in a particular gun I'll try to avoid it.
It's been a fun project, so far! I think the washer worked! I'm pleased!
Dick

Should note, these loads are all in .38 Special cases.

Stevejet
12-30-2010, 11:29 PM
It's always satisfying when the right parts, efforts, reloads and planning produce good results!

Reddog
01-01-2011, 01:23 AM
It's a good thing I did my shooting yesterday! The temperature hit a high of 21, today. On the way home from town tonight we had 9 showing in the car! I may be doing some bullet casting in the next few days!

Reddog
01-01-2011, 02:55 PM
Happy New Year, Everyone!
It's a grand new year, and I've got a lot of bullets to cast, shells to load and guns to shoot! Better get started!
Dick

Stevejet
01-02-2011, 01:15 AM
As precocious a pistolero as ever slapped leather, even back when, eh?

Reddog
01-02-2011, 12:54 PM
Yessir!
Didn't get a .22 rifle until I was about 11 or 12, though! Got my first coyote not long after that! I walked him up in a field of milo stubble. He ran right in front of me between two rows of cut stalks! It was great growing up on a farm! I learned to walk that 22 in on running jackrabbits in our plowed fields. We had tons of them then. I haven't seen one around here for over 20 years? When they took the $3 bounty off the coyotes, back when, the jacks disappeared. Plenty of coyotes to call, though!

Reddog
01-03-2011, 08:12 PM
Found another. 586, L frame.

I shot the Mod. 28, today. It likes the 3.5gr. 700X with the 172 gr. Keith bullet!

Reddog
01-06-2011, 02:46 PM
Been a lot of shootin' goin' on around here! Wonder what everyone else is doing?

Stevejet
01-07-2011, 01:05 AM
You'll have to step out from this forum, Dick, and visit others to see what's happening. But I don't recommend it too highly unless you like to become part of a hair-ball chasing its tail. There's still good postings occassionally in the other forums and we often experience "flat spots" where the energy level falls off due to lack of good subject matter and stimulating and sometimes intelligent dialog. As of the past few weeks I look for new forum subjects and when I see who has posted (usually cut and paste) them I pass on by. Enough.

I am going to load all that fine .38 Special brass you sent with 3D Brand 148 grain hollow base full wadcutters. It serves as an economic effort on several fronts, first for the cost of less powder and secondly as fodder for non-reloaders to sample in shooting because I can't see wasting moderate to heavy loads on these type of folks. Give 'em a taste and let their curiosity, or lack of it, carry the ball forward. I'll be loading those Keith "heavies" you sent when I empty out some of my loaded .357 inventory. I want to get up to the high desert and do some "ballistic surveying" where I can pick out an object, identify its suitability as a target, shoot and range on it (several hundred yards, if possible) and then pace out the distance to find out the objects approximate range. You can kill a lot of quality time conducting these exercizes and even scare up a few jack rabbits in the process.

Here's wishing you an eventful and satisfying New Year and hoping you can avoid jail in the pursuit of the same.

Machinist
01-07-2011, 01:28 AM
Been a lot of shootin' goin' on around here! Wonder what everyone else is doing?

Watching the Reddog thread, of course. Drooling over the latest acquisitions and examining the latest data. All very interesting!

Reddog
01-07-2011, 10:26 AM
Steve,
I do watch some of the other forums, especially S&W. I do a lot of research there and watch for bargains. But I spend most of my time here. I enjoy being here with you guys, sharing a little info and doing a little rabble rousing once in a while!
That hollow base wadcutter sounds like an accurate bullet. I'm glad you're getting some use out of that other stuff! But what's with shooting rocks at several hundred yards? What are you, the "Long Ranger"? Does Tonto go along and spot for you?

Jeff,
Thought I'd found another one! A Mod. 27, with a 6.5" barrel that was bulged an inch from the muzzle. It came with several extras, including an 8&3/8" barrel. Good price, but another guy had been dealing for it and finally came through with the cash! I had thought I could have someone cut the original barrel back to 5" and re-install the front sight. Then I could keep the long barrel for a spare or sell it. Still would have been a good deal! Oh, well!

I'm still working with the Mod. 28 that drags on one chamber. I thought I'd fixed it with the end shake washers, but apparently not completely. It shoots good, though?
Dick

Reddog
01-07-2011, 11:23 PM
I picked up the NPRC S&W 586, tonight, and it's a beauty! It was said to be fired a few rounds but I have my doubts. There is just a faint sign of a turn ring and nothing else to make me think it's been fired! It came with the original box and all the unused tools, also.
Dick

Machinist
01-07-2011, 11:48 PM
A real presentation piece!

Stevejet
01-08-2011, 01:45 AM
SIXGUNS by Keith - The Standard Reference Work, Chapter V - Long Range Shooting, pages 109 thru 119.

"LONG RANGE SHOOTING is the real teast of any revolver or pistol. True, some loads were never intended for any but short ranges, but in the main, long range shooting will prove both gun and load. Many shooters of experience with rifles do not realize that only a very short barrel is necessary to stabilize and accurately start a slug on its way to a distant target. Trajectory is necessarily very high, but accuracy of a good sixgun or auto pistol and a good load is surprising. Many guns and loads will do fairly well at close range but are absolutely hopeless for long range work, hence long range shooting is the real test of a gun and load."

I found the above written words of Elmer Keith to be true years after I had opportunities to practice the "art of lobbing" 263 grain Keith SWC leads, over the classic 8.0 grains of Unique, at rusty 55 gallon burn-barrels in seasonally abandoned sheep herders camps up in the Lakeside Mountains on the west side of the Great Salt Lake. Once I got the visual cues from the bullets fired kicking up the dirt, I began walking my bullets into barrels that were latter counted at over 270 paces. That particular afternoon I was pretty consistant in shooting "minute-of-burn barrel" with my new Colt .45 SAA with a 7 1/2 inch tube. I wasn't and still am not concerned with "grouping" at that range on barrels or bathtub size rocks mainly because they lack "vital zones". But I have taken "sitting" jackrabbits from over 100 yards while I sat on a hillside and they cooperated by staying put, probably because they didn't know from what direction the danger was coming. As I recall, it took me 7 or 8 shots to make 3 hits on two rabbits one afternoon. I am not anything above an average shot with a handgun, especially shooting offhand. But I have had my moments of being deadly due to reasonable confidence that I could probaly make the shot. I also happen to have been lucky in selecting a Colt .45 SAA in 1972 that has been a winner right from the factory box.

As for Tonto, well, every self-respecting, deadly long range revolver shooter (Long Ranger) needs a dependable "Gun Bearer".

Reddog
01-08-2011, 03:38 PM
I once killed a deadly cotton tail rabbit at 111 paces with my K-38 and light wadcutter loads. Walked them in and got him with the 5th. shot! This was about 45 years ago when I was young and in my prime!
How many rounds does it take to kill a bathtub sized rock?

I've found, in my recent shooting, that I don't have to hold over much to hit my 18" by 24" iron coyote hanging at 100 yards. Usually, I just hold on the top edge of his back. The wind seems to bother more than the drop. That is, with the heavier semiwad loads I've been using in .38 Special in this thread.
Can't seem to kill that sucker, either!
Dick

Stevejet
01-08-2011, 08:01 PM
You probably need a more powerful load, Dick. Perhaps a maximum compressed amount of Binford 7000 Powder. And aim for the vitals on that coyote, that treacherous varmint. As for rocks.....man, they can be hardcore suckers. In fact, some I relegate only to my BR .303's or 30-06's.

Reddog
01-08-2011, 10:34 PM
I had a neighbor (now deceased) that shot right through my iron coyote a couple times with his Minie 14. That didn't hurt him either, just ventilated him a little so he ran cooler. That Binford 7000 sounds scary to me!

Reddog
01-10-2011, 01:29 AM
Loading .38 Special and casting 162 gr. GC .38 bullets, today! Too cold to be outside. Supposed to snow all day tomorrow! It must be January!
Still trying to buy that broken Mod. 27.

Reddog
01-10-2011, 10:51 PM
Hey, all you Fine Fettered Fellows!
Other than S&W, where's a good place to get a barrel cut off and the front sight reinstalled?
Dick

Reddog
01-13-2011, 08:24 AM
The temps here have been in the mid teens since the snow! Just staying in the house, loading shells and casting bullets! Where have all the flowers gone?
Finished the deal on the bulged Mod. 27!

Reddog
01-16-2011, 05:25 PM
The temp reached 35, today, but we still have full coverage of snow on the ground! Bright sun, though. I took the Mod. 28 and a box of .38 Special loaded with 4.7 gr. Unique and the 162 gr. gas check bullet, out to the range. I shot the iron swinging target at 25 yards, offhand and the iron coyote at 100 yards from the bench. Did pretty good! Kinda nice to get out!
That's the last I'm going to use that mold so it's going on Ebay, tonight.

Reddog
01-17-2011, 08:37 PM
Out about 3:30, today, with the Mod. 28, again. 56, 5mph breeze and sloppy from snow melt! very nice day!
I shot iron for a while, offhand, and then proceeded to shoot from the bags. The gun was doing very well, better than me! Of all the targets fired, I think this one was the only new one. Supposed to start getting cold again, tomorrow!

Reddog
01-18-2011, 11:20 PM
Received the Mod. 27, today! Other than the barrel, it is one slick looking gun!

Stevejet
01-19-2011, 02:54 AM
Dick - sometimes the "gaps" in your running dialogs are amusing, but other times I almost get corneal whiplash reading them.

To wit......last time you wrote of the bulged barrel gat, I was led to understand that someone else had "done the deal" on bidding you out of the picture. Then you ask for gunsmith recommendations for cutting a barrel and re-installing the front sight. Am I having experience with the onset of a "senior moment" or did you "do the deal" and not keep the sacred continuity of the story intact?

Also, what, if anything have you developed in understanding the returning and/or persistent cylinder chamber "lead spatter" problem? Given the feeler stock check you accomplished and finding that you have fairly close and uniform individual chamber mouth-to-barrel gaps, is it in fact a problem, like cylinder dragging or some such physical anomoly. The last tension filled episode you related on this particular subject the chamber mouth/face lead spatter had migrated to a different chamber. What the heck is going on that crazy and incomprehensible state of Kansas anyway? Are those damm flying monkeys from Oz back in town?

You need to update us on these two items and spare the unecessary suspense. We have inquisitive minds and need to know.

Reddog
01-19-2011, 09:16 AM
I dunno, Steve?
I'm developing gaps between my teeth, too!
The lead wash on the cylinder doesn't seem to be a problem, now? There still seems to be a very slight drag on one chamber, but not enough to really bother. I can't find any problem with the hand, which is what I last suspected. So, I'm going to continue to shoot it, a lot, and hopefully it will wear in. Not too professional, huh?
Think I'll try to find a different extractor rod and try that.
I did end up with the Mod. 27. Other than the bulge, there are some initials scratched on the recoil plate which only show when the cylinder is open, I think I can remove most of that. Also, when I got it, I found it had been ported? That will all come off in the barrel shortening process. Otherwise, it's really a pretty gun and must have been very high dollar, originally.
I'm ready to send it to a 'smith to have the barrel cut to 5" and the sight moved or replaced. It looks like I'm probably going to end up with about 5 bills in the complete gun. Not bad, for a nice 27 with two barrels, three sets of grips and three speedloaders.
I'm on the prowl, now, for another 6" Mod. 57. Need one bad!
Back to your first question, sometimes it gets so stagnant around here that I just drift away. Why don't you liven it up a little?
Dick

Stevejet
01-19-2011, 02:45 PM
With the barrel bulged like it is, I believe the gun is trying to tell a story which may never be heard. However, with a bulge of that magnitude I wonder if the pressure that caused it at that end didn't in fact cause the cylinder base pin/ejector rod to bend a bit. If that is the case I can understand a "high spot", due to deflection, causing the cylinder to exhibit an off-axis cant as it is rotated (?). Or not (?).

Some the "heaters" out in circulation and in the hands of law-biding tyros could really tell some fascinating tales.

Reddog
01-19-2011, 04:28 PM
Might be getting mixed up? The dragging cylinder is on the Mod.28. The bulged barrel is on the Mod. 27. But anyway, I found that Midway USA had new extractor rods for $7.29, so I ordered one for each gun. May take care of both problems! A little kink might be causing the one chamber to drag on the 28 and the 27 looks like someone may have used pliers on the rod on it? And, tried to turn it the wrong way.
I'm really curious how that barrel got bulged that far out? It's centered right on the ports. I'd have thought the ports might have relieved it a little? I bet the gas escaping those ports on that shot were really playin' a tune!

Stevejet
01-19-2011, 09:20 PM
See! A senior moment....get some Ruger's, Colt's and Springfield's so I don't get all those S&W's mixed up.

By the way, why would the advancing hand "discriminate" between chambers?

Reddog
01-19-2011, 10:57 PM
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-smithing/170841-when-k-frame-out-time.html

Steve,
Read the 8th. post in the above thread. Long live S&W!

Reddog
01-22-2011, 03:27 PM
Well, Boys! I received the extractor rods from Midway, yesterday, and they don't fit the Model 28. Backward thread! They're OK on the Mod. 27. They're looking into it.
Dick

Stevejet
01-22-2011, 04:26 PM
After reading that, I'll stick with my SA's and semi-auto's.

Machinist
01-22-2011, 04:34 PM
More for us!!

Reddog
01-22-2011, 04:39 PM
Steve,
Don't you own at least one S&W double action? You don't know what you're missing!
Dick

Stevejet
01-22-2011, 07:10 PM
I bought a Taurus M65 3" barrel .357 for my wife back in 1992. It's about as "S&W Clonish" as it can get. It's built like the proverbial S&W vault and though no more than maybe 200 rounds have been shot thru it - by me no less - and it operates well, I never got the hang of or desire to develop any competency with double-action trigger work.

Gun appearances are primarily what drive folks to make initial forays into examining and purchasing guns; who wants an ugly one? The only S&W I ever found appealing on looks alone was the M27 4 inch barrel model and of course the Colt Python and Diamandback revolvers. But I was hooked on single actions back when and have stuck with them except for my 1911's.

Now, when I see some of the Smith's that guys have accumulated over the years, I kind of wish I had bought a few double actions, but I have what I have and it is what it is. Besides, I read and kept one of my gun magazines from a few years back that gave a treatise on how to disassemble and inspect the S&W and even remove the "Lock" from the dash models. Tooooooo many parts gents!

Reddog
01-22-2011, 09:52 PM
Steve,
Too bad you didn't start with a Smith! You might have developed a different opinion. I went through a Taurus phase about 20 years ago. Never was able to develope an accurate load with it. Don't remember the model #. It looked a lot like the S&W 686.

Stevejet
01-23-2011, 02:14 AM
M65 Taurus is strictly a "belly gun" for short range social work. No match trophies for this one. It's in permanent L.A. Survival Mode.

Reddog
01-23-2011, 03:39 PM
I think I had a Tarus 65 once? 4" stainless. I traded it on a S&W 65, 4" stainless. Still have it in my bedside dresser.

Reddog
01-26-2011, 01:29 AM
Good shooting, today! 45 and slight breeze! Shot my Mod. 28 and the 686!
Dick

Reddog
01-26-2011, 08:00 PM
Found a local smith to cut off the barrel on my 27 and mount a new sight, today!

Reddog
01-28-2011, 11:04 PM
70, bright sun and 8 mph breeze, today! Shot most of two boxes of 153 SW and 3.7 - 700X - 38 Special in my 686! Great fun!
Dick

Stevejet
01-29-2011, 01:34 AM
So, who is doing the "tube cutting"? A local yokel or a brand-name prima donna? Is the target barrel length four inches or just behind the "bulge"?

Reddog
01-29-2011, 09:40 AM
A local fellow. The barrel will be 5". It was 6.5" to start.

Reddog
01-31-2011, 06:22 PM
Gettin' cold here, Boys!
Snowing now, and single digits the next couple days! May have to do some bullet casting!
Dick

Stevejet
02-02-2011, 03:08 AM
Well Dick, is the Mother of All Storms going to invade your neighborhood?

We were slammed with another foul and treacherous day of gale force sunshine today and are now braced for another cruel and threatening night in the mid 40's. But not to worry, we're a hardy bunch out here on the most Western Frontier.

Reddog
02-02-2011, 09:15 AM
Already did! It's 1 now, and the wind is at about 30 mph. The storm moved out to the northeast, yesterday afternoon and left about 4" or more snow on the ground. But the weatherman says it will be back to 45 by Friday or Saturday. I can cast bullets that long!

Reddog
02-07-2011, 09:49 AM
With the current forcast of cold and snow, I see the opportunity to cast many .38/.357 bullets!

Stevejet
02-08-2011, 12:22 AM
Electric bill getting high?

Reddog
02-08-2011, 01:21 AM
Doesn't seem to make much difference? Cast another 300 .38 wads, today!

Reddog
02-09-2011, 01:09 AM
We've had snow all day! Above 8" and down to 0, now!
Forced me to cast 300 more RCBS 203 gr. .45 semi-wads for my 1911-R1. Supposed to keep it up 'til noon tomorrow! Think I might have to cast some more RCBS 153 gr. SWs for the .38s.
Hope you all have a good day, tomorrow! I'm going to!

Stevejet
02-10-2011, 02:28 AM
DICK! Get away from that lead melter! You've been inhaling too many lead fumes and that cadmium plated screwdriver you use to stir the melt can't possibly be helping anything!

Ovaltine and cookies are a good antidote for "lead/cadmium poisoning". I recommend them in heavy doses!

Reddog
02-10-2011, 08:23 AM
I did, yesterday! 8" of snow, so I managed to get the pickup stuck in the driveway, first! Then the tractor wouldn't start because of 3 temp! Put the charger on and got it going about noon. Got our drive cleared, then went 1/2 mile, down to son Steve's and cleared his. By this time I'm about froze, solid! Came home and loaded a box of 45 ACP to warm up! OK now, but it's -7 this AM! Probably cast some more bullets to warm up!
Dick
PS - Won a 358091, full wad mold on E-bay, yesterday!
PS - PS - I haven't had any Ovaltine since my mother gave it to me for breakfast, 65 years ago! Is it still available?

Stevejet
02-10-2011, 02:58 PM
I have four (4) jars in the cupboard (2 malted, 2 chocolate malted). Get out to a REAL store and you'll see Ovaltine on the shelf!

Reddog
02-11-2011, 10:07 AM
I'll get some!
Going to North Texas, Monday, to shoot with friends!

Reddog
02-12-2011, 11:32 PM
Picked up an old timey S&W 38/44 Heavy Duty, today! About 1935, my birth year! Pics soon!
Pics added! It's a 5" barrel! Sights seem to be about 1.5" high and the 1" left with most loads at 25 yards. Not going to worry about that. Lots of character in this one! And money!

Reddog
02-18-2011, 10:47 AM
Hey Shooters!
Last Monday, I loaded up the 38/44 and 6 or 7 other guns with a large amount of ammo and headed south to faif2d's in north Texas. We met Machinist there for a three man shoot out on Tuesday. Boy, did we have fun! We expended a great amount of ammo and moved a lot of dirt around! Sometimes, on target!
It turns out that Machinist is an excellent shot and has much knowledge of handguns! Really glad to meet him but wish he didn't live 400 miles away!
Also, while at faif2d's he brought out a very early .44 Magnum that he had inherited from his father many years ago. It is a 4" pre 29 in excellent condition, near new, with coke stocks! Talk about envious! Wow!
Steve is more of a rifle enthusiast but is really picking up on the handgun shooting! As usual, Steve and Carol (faif2d) were perfect hosts and my wife Pat and I, along with Jeff, had a great time! I wouldn't mind doing that again, soon!
Dick
PS - Here's a link to Steve's .44. http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/177971-4-s-w-pre-29-w-cokes.html

Machinist
02-18-2011, 01:44 PM
You are too kind but the truth is that you and Steve were doing at 100 yards what I used to do at 25 yards. Very impressive shooting!

What a pleasure to meet two such fine gentlemen and try so many neat guns.

Reddog
02-18-2011, 05:44 PM
You guys got me so wound up down there Tuesday, that after a day of rest, I was back out today to put a box of .38s down the tube of the Mod. 28/HP! Really wanted to go out yesterday because the temp made it to 77! Too tired, though, had to settle for 64, today, with no wind. I think spring is in the air!
Speaking of spring, today, I found a set of large animal tracks out at the range. Does a large cat's tracks show claws in mud? Or was this a large dog's tracks? There have been some sightings of mountain lions in KS, recently.
Dick

Reddog
02-25-2011, 03:08 PM
I was out the other day with my Mod. 28 HP (I'm going to refer to this gun as #20769X, now, since I will soon have another like it, only newer). I shot all the usual loads and then an extra 10 of 172 Keith semiwad and 3.5 gr. 700X in the .38 Special. This gun really likes this load!
This is off the sandbags. Shooting offhand just proves what a poor shot I'm getting to be! This 358429 mold casts such a perfect bullet that I intend to use it more. The 153 gr. RCBS bullet is accurate, too, but the extra 19 grains of the 429 bullet adds a lot of authority!
I need to chronograph it again, too!
I hope everyone gets in some shooting this weekend! It's in the low 30s here, so doubt that I will. I cast 300 of the 429 bullet, yesterday. Plan to cast more of the 153 RCBS .38 bullet and maybe some 220 gr. .41s., if it stays cold!
Dick

Reddog
02-26-2011, 01:37 AM
Got the Ovaltine!

Reddog
02-27-2011, 01:52 AM
I cast 300 - 153 gr. semiwad .38 Specials, today!
58, tomorrow, so I'm going to hit the range!

Stevejet
02-27-2011, 03:07 AM
Cold winds and rains with snow at lower - real low - elevations in Kalifornia. Winds blowing sand drifts several inches high at the beaches and temps will be in mid 30's tomorrow in SoCal with gale force sunshine. No joy.

BUT.....I found and bought a new Redfield single piece base for my Springfield 1903 that has the rectangular hole for accepting matching ring lug/foot. Hardly anybody even lists a single piece base for 1903's, just 1903-A3, -A4's. Put Leopold rings on and mounted a new Burris 3X-9X-40MM Fullfield II. Boresighted this evening and ready for the range.

Back in "bidness".

Reddog
02-27-2011, 10:44 AM
Steve,
Sounds like unusual weather for California? We're supposed to have high 50s today, but right now it's foggy and 36. Hope to get to shoot, later.
Your Springfield sounds good! What sort of stock does it have?
I have an '03-A3 set up with Lyman Peep sights and a Timney trigger. I bought it from a fellow in California that was building them out of surplus parts. It has an action with the slot on the left side of the action for use with the "Pederson" device which the military had planned to use with the .22 long rifle for practice. That plan didn't work out but I was surprised to see an action like that still around! (See bottom view in attached pic.) The fellow sporterized the stock and re-parkerized the metal parts. I added the Timney, a leather strap and a thin rubber butt pad. Looks pretty good and is a fine shooter! I bought it to shoot in an internet postal match a few years back. We we're shooting offhand at 50 yards. Nice, light weight rifle for that!
Think I'll probably sell it and a 1917 Enfield that I have, soon.

Machinist
02-27-2011, 01:00 PM
Reddog,
The Pedersen Devise actually chambered a straight walled .30 caliber pistol round much like the .32 French long cartridge used in France for pistols and submachineguns before they adopted the 9mm after WW2. It was intended for troops in WW1 to allow heavy walking fire as they approached enemy trenches. It had a 40 round magazine I think and was intended to be issued in a canvas kit so the soldier could remove his bolt and replace it with the Device when wanted while still allowing normal use on the rifle from the trenches by reinstalling the bolt. The war ended before these got into service and it was dropped.

Reddog
02-27-2011, 03:12 PM
http://www.remingtonsociety.com/questions/Pedersen.htm

Thanks, Jeff!
You're right! I don't know where I got the .22 idea?

Machinist
02-27-2011, 09:14 PM
Well, the equivalent for the modern service rifle probably would be. ;)

Reddog
03-01-2011, 12:43 AM
50 today, with bright sun and almost no wind! Shot the 686 with 12.0 gr. 2400 and the 172 gr. Keith bullet. Nine shots, only. All I had left! Good, hot load!
The Mod. 57 and the Mod. 28 I bought shipped Monday!
Dick

Reddog
03-02-2011, 05:18 PM
Here's my latest, Boys! It's a keeper, not a shooter!
Dick

Reddog
03-08-2011, 01:42 PM
I wanted to get out with my M-28, yesterday, but even at 50 the wind was blowing too much so it was cold! Today, it's misty and trying to rain! Maybe, tomorrow?
Also, maybe tomorrow I will get my M-27-2 back that is having the barrel shortened to 5". Hope so! I'm planning that to be one of my main shooters for 38/357.

Actually, I'm getting quite a flock of shooters in this caliber!

6" K-38 from 1950, for the light wadcutter target loads. Hard to beat for accuracy!

5" 38/44 HD from 1935, for heavy .38 loads, but just once in a while, though, don't like the sights!

6" M-686 no dash, for everything, has been my main shooter for a long time!

6" M-28-2, which has really helped me get used to the weight of the "N" frame. I handle it a lot in the evening watching tv. Empty, of course!

5" M-27-2. This may end up my favorite.

How about lists from some of the rest of you?
Dick

PS - Looks as if I won't get the M-27 'til later in the week!

Reddog
03-12-2011, 08:48 PM
Hey Boys!
My chop job came in, today! Mod 27-2, 5".It was getting near sundown, so I immediately took it and a box of 153 SW and 3.7 gr. 700X .38 Specials to the range! I fired 15 rounds setting the sights, then 10 to see how it grouped. Here are the results! I coulda' done without the two that went high! I'll post some pics of the gun, tomorrow, after I get it cleaned.
It's amazing how much different this gun feels with a one inch shorter barrel! I like it!
Dick

Stevejet
03-13-2011, 12:24 AM
Still sufferin' from the palsey are you, Dick? Spraying to all fields! Get that new toy cleaned and some photo's up on line so we can see the results of the surgery.

Reddog
03-13-2011, 02:45 PM
Here it is, Steve!
Not quite the same, but good enough for me! It's accurate! It's a shooter! It's under $400!

Machinist
03-13-2011, 05:47 PM
Looks good!!

Reddog
03-13-2011, 09:14 PM
Thanks, Jeff!
I like it!

Stevejet
03-13-2011, 11:43 PM
Much more appealing with the "slimmed down" muzzle!

Reddog
03-13-2011, 11:56 PM
Yes it is. I wish he had radiused the crown, though.

Reddog
03-14-2011, 08:05 PM
Hey Shooters!
This chopped M-27 is just getting better and better! We had 50, bright sun and light winds here in Kansas, today, so I ran a few more different loads through it!
How about that HS-5 load? I don't have much of it left but, I'll be using what I do have with this load! The other two are passable.

Dick

Machinist
03-14-2011, 08:08 PM
Yes it is. I wish he had radiused the crown, though.


If it gets to bothering you I could probably take it off your hands. What are friends for?

Reddog
03-14-2011, 10:16 PM
Like I told Steve about the odd lots of powder a while back, I'll send it, just hold your breath 'til it shows up!
I have a set of plastic Hogues, supposedly for an "N" frame, but I can't figure how they would mount? I'll try to take some pics, tomorrow, and send them for you to look at.

Machinist
03-15-2011, 12:30 AM
The original Hogue grips were ABS plastic with a stippled surface that gave good traction. For S&Ws they required driving out the cross pin that helps locate the normal wooden grips. You then drop a stirrup over the bottom of the grip frame and a threaded round piece fit in the holes on either ear of the stirrup to provide a place for the grip screw to thread into from underneath. I have a couple of these early grips for a K frame and an N frame. The cross pin is a roll pin so it can be driven back in place to use conventional grips if you don't lose it. The later Hogues put a groove on either side of the grip channel for the pin so it does not have to be removed. The stirrup was reversed so the holes in the ears fit that cross pin and the threaded hole is in the cross piece of the stirrup instead of the removable round bar with end pegs to fit the stirrup holes.

Does that sound like what you have?

Reddog
03-15-2011, 01:21 AM
Yes, except for the stirrup. This one has a odd shaped plastic cube that fits into a slot in the bottom inside of the grips. A plastic screw screws into that from the bottom outside of the grips. No stirrup?

Machinist
03-15-2011, 11:05 AM
Wow! That's a new one on me.

What secures the plastic cube to the gun?

Do you have to remove the pin?

Reddog
03-15-2011, 11:47 AM
Yes, the pin has to be removed. Don't know what holds the cube?

Reddog
03-15-2011, 01:57 PM
Here you go, Jeff!
Does this look familiar? I bet there was a stirrup of sorts, originally. But, without the pin, what would hold it?
Dick

Reddog
03-15-2011, 09:55 PM
Jeff,
I think these must be for a K frame? Won't go on an N frame.

Machinist
03-16-2011, 01:02 AM
The original grips had a stirrup that was just a bent piece of metal with holes in the ends. The part that was threaded for the screw had two short pegs that fit in those holes to hold it. It hung over the bottom on the grip frame with the cross piece inside and the legs hanging down each side. The threaded part was round with a flat where the hole went through and the pegs were on the ends.

I have never seen the plastic part.

The original grip was for the K frame only and the N frame came along later (this was before the L frame).

Machinist
03-16-2011, 01:25 AM
Here is the old setup. Sorry I am not the photographer some of the members are but I think you can see how it worked.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o109/machinist360/guns/OldHoguestirrup.jpg

Reddog
03-16-2011, 01:37 AM
That's what I have on the rubber set on the M-27. You wouldn't have an extra one, would you?

Machinist
03-16-2011, 02:01 AM
Did you have to pull the pin to install that rubber set? If not, then you would need the later type..

I don't know if this is for the N or K but it may fit both. I will mail it to you so you can try it.

Reddog
03-16-2011, 10:59 AM
There was no pin in the M-27. It came with the Hogues on it. Don't send one you need. I can find one somewhere else if necessary.

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